From Paleo to Wai, need guidance

[Mireia]

I think there might be something wrong with my metabolism, because there were times when I did not even gain on 3700 calories (Paleo with lots of raw butter and olive oil for cals).
So only needing 2400 to maintain and a bit more to gain is an improvement. I have been underweight pretty much my whole life and unable to gain despite eating so much. I am not even active, just home and take a daily walk.

[dime]

Hi mystic, just give it a try, it's not that hard :) Make a liter or more of juice, add oil, and go ahead.
I never feel hungry, and as far as I know it's same with the others who seriously practice this diet.
But maybe it takes some time to get used to not having a particularly full stomach, I can't remember if I felt hungry or not when I first started.

[Mireia]

I think olive oil is giving me diarrhea. Is there any way to avoid it?

[dime]

I think this would be obvious, but just don't eat it then, or maybe eat less? I mean it's not mandatory or something.

[overkees]

Please try coconut oil or red palm oil. Olive oil mixes very well with the OJ. The hard fats are alot harder to mix (there are techniques though, but they might not be very practical).

Mireia have you tested hormone levels recently? In particular your estrogen and thyroid hormones? Also can you measure your pulse and blood pressure in the morning when you haven't eaten anything and after eating? Looks like you've stressed out the system big time with the high fat diet. Sugar is very antistress.

The same thing happened to me after I turned to eating pretty much only avocados for a few weeks, that did me ALOT of trouble. I was eating +4000kcal a day and feeling intense hunger pangs still. Not gaining any weight. I am now training to eat more carbs too, and only use as little fat as possible.

If you've got no sugar reserves in the liver, the stress hormones will start the less favorable fat for fuel instead of the sugars. This might be a very good thing to clean up processes (autophagy and such) in the short term that only work if you cut out the protein aswell by the way. Conclusion: Ketosis should only be used as a temporal therapy and certainly not for the longer term. I can't believe how people fall for this illogic thinking (me included even if it was for only a couple of months).

Sweet tastes best and therefore is best (carrot is sweet, too). It would be totally nonsensical to think that this is not the way nature intended it to be. Build up slowly and listen closely.

[RRM]

I have a question regarding the OJ. Does it keep you "full"? I get the impression that only drinking juice, even with fat, would leave me constantly hungry. Does the meat add to the satisfaction?

When you are used to fill up your stomach regularly, you will be inclined to think that an empty stomach equals 'hunger'.
Though this 'stomach hunger' may coincide with, it does not represent your need for energy, in any way.
Your blood sugar level does.
When your energy levels are low, you need energy / food.
Emptying / refilling your stomach is just that. If you ignore your stomach for a while,
and instead only pay attention to your actual energy needs, you will notice that that this 'stomach hunger' does not bother you any more.

[Oscar]

There is more than one type of hunger:
1. need for energy
2. craving addictive substances (certain HCA's also stimulate appetite)
3. 'filling' the stomach

When we come from a 3-meal-a-day addictive diet, we will get the 2nd and 3rd hunger signals next to the 1st one, so that can be confusing at first. One possible aid can be the fruit test: if you feel you could/want to eat fruit, then it's probably the need for energy. We have to train our body to signal us only when it needs energy. This could be quite often, like 3 times per hour in case of drinking OJ. When in doubt, eat/drink.

Mireia, your intestines need some time (like 2 weeks or so, if I remember my own transition correctly...I had constipation and diarrhea during that time) to adjust to a new diet, but you already know that.

[Mireia]

Dime
Olive oil or oil and fat in general really helps raise my calories, and it is less expensive than one jar of coconut oil for 15 Euros.

[Mireia]

Mireia have you tested hormone levels recently? In particular your estrogen and thyroid hormones?

I did get them tested late February. They were normal for the most part but it was just a small hormone panel. I think my sexhormones were elevated a bit? My thyroid was normal when it was last tested (TSH of 2.2), it was 5 on the ketogenic diet, 3.2 on moderate carb Paleo and as high as 8 on a normal diet. I used to have Hashimoto's so to say, but Doctors say even my Ultrasounds look normal now.  

Also can you measure your pulse and blood pressure in the morning when  you haven't eaten anything and after eating? Looks like you've stressed out the system big time with the high fat diet. Sugar is very antistress.

I don't have a measuring device atm, maybe my mother has one. 

The same thing happened to me after I turned to eating pretty much only avocados for a few weeks, that did me ALOT of trouble. I was eating +4000kcal a day and feeling intense hunger pangs still. Not gaining any weight. I am now training to eat more carbs too, and only use as little fat as possible.

 
I was not hungry on low carb, but I felt sluggish and I did not look too good. My face looked sunken in and not plump anymore.

If you've got no sugar reserves in the liver, the stress hormones will start the less favorable fat for fuel instead of the sugars. This might be a very good thing to clean up processes (autophagy and such) in the short term that only work if you cut out the protein aswell by the way. Conclusion: Ketosis should only be used as a temporal therapy and certainly not for the longer term. I can't believe how people fall for this illogic thinking (me included even if it was for only a couple of months). 

Sweet tastes best and therefore is best (carrot is sweet, too). It would be totally nonsensical to think that this is not the way nature intended it to be. Build up slowly and listen closely.

That is probably why my liver enzymes were so high. My doctor was close to hospitalizing me. I had resumed eating carbs though and my levels dropped rapidly. 
What some people teach on Paleo sites is that the primitive people did not have access to fruits much (or veggies), therefore eating meat and mostly fat must be best.
But I came across a TON of people who had the same bad experiences as me. Especially thyroid, hair loss, hormones. That makes me sceptical towards the anti carb propaganda. That and the fact that mothers milk is high sugar AND fat, and babys thrive on it. No one looks as perfect and healthy as a breastfed baby.

I do feel like something is off with my hormones still. 

That said, my skin is clearing up rapidly! I'm gonna try not to flip out and continue assuming I have a good week, but no breakout ever cleared this fast and complete. I have been having bad acne lately. 

[Mireia]

There is more than one type of hunger:
1. need for energy
2. craving addictive substances (certain HCA's also stimulate appetite)
3. 'filling' the stomach

When we come from a 3-meal-a-day addictive diet, we will get the 2nd and 3rd hunger signals next to the 1st one, so that can be confusing at first. One possible aid can be the fruit test: if you feel you could/want to eat fruit, then it's probably the need for energy. We have to train our body to signal us only when it needs energy. This could be quite often, like 3 times per hour in case of drinking OJ. When in doubt, eat/drink.

Mireia, your intestines need some time (like 2 weeks or so, if I remember my own transition correctly...I had constipation and diarrhea during that time) to adjust to a new diet, but you already know that.

Yeah I will give it time. Today I had less pains than yesterday. The avocado tomato and cucumber salat for example.
I think my bloating may even need much more time. It just increases throughout the day.
I feel sluggish, a bit weak and lightheaded right now, but that might be a detox phase. I had the same with the Paleo diet. I also feel constant hunger but I noticed if I eat large amounts of something and more bananas I stay full longer. Is that okay? I worry about overeating on banana (8 a day).

[dime]

Dime
Olive oil or oil and fat in general really helps raise my calories, and it is less expensive than one jar of coconut oil for 15 Euros.

I think you meant to address overkees, he's a bit against fat, not me?
Either way, with olive oil the trick is to slowly get used to more and more. I started with little and added up to 150 grams a day without problems. I reached some better (higher) body fat that way, and nowadays I stick to 100-120g at most.

What some people teach on Paleo sites is that the primitive people did not have access to fruits much (or veggies), therefore eating meat and mostly fat must be best.

That is at most speculation and nothing more. We are certainly not carnivores but omnivores, so the theory that meat and mostly fat is best for us isn't even that logical.

I also feel constant hunger but I noticed if I eat large amounts of something and more bananas I stay full longer. Is that okay? I worry about overeating on banana (8 a day).

Try to ignore the hunger and avoid eating large amounts at once. Or eat small amounts (one banana at a time) but along with fat.

[Mireia]

Dime
I was adressing your above comment about leaving out or reducing olive oil because of the diarrhea. But the reason I want to keep it around is because it is easily added, affordable calories. I am able to really consume a lot of calories this way and will hopefully gain some more weight.

[dime]

Ah right, but if it's causing you diarrhea then that's not good and you're absorbing less nutrients than you think, because due to the diarrhea food goes fast through. That's why I thought it would be better to try another oil or simply reduce it.
You can try my trick to increase digestability of oil: mix oil with juice and an egg yolk. The lecitin in egg yolk will help emulsify it and make it easier to digest. At least to me it feels like it's easier to digest this way.
Also avoid having too much oil at once.

[Oscar]

I feel sluggish, a bit weak and lightheaded right now, but that might be a detox phase. I had the same with the Paleo diet. I also feel constant hunger but I noticed if I eat large amounts of something and more bananas I stay full longer. Is that okay? I worry about overeating on banana (8 a day).

Feeling sluggish, weak, and lightheaded means you're lacking energy, and your reserves might be (close to) empty. Could you list for one day exactly what you eat and exactly when you eat it? 8 bananas isn't that many, so no worries.

[RRM]

Yes, indeed.
Please increase your meal frequency as much as required to make you feel energetic.