Osteoporosis and Acid/base balance

[Thomas]

RRM,

I love your osteoporosis article... However, I believe there must be more to it than calcium intake.

It seems to me that when consuming a hgh meat diet with little fruit you get a 'double' because the meat creates a metabolic acidosis while there is little fruit to buffer it.

Do you believe that the reason neanderthal was shorter than erectus had more to do with neanderthal's high meat intake, or was it more due to erectus' frequent fruit consumption (or a combination)?

[RRM]

RRM,
I love your osteoporosis article... However, I believe there must be more to it than calcium intake.

Sure, there are many factors involved.
However, if you look at statistical evidence, the only striking correlation is that between calcium intake (per country), average bone mineral density, and eventual bone fracture rates in elderly.
For all other factors, only weak correlations can be found.
So, calcium intake must be, by far, the most influential factor.

This makes so much sense as over and over again it has been shown that calcium intake has by far the greatest influence on bone mineral density.

It seems to me that when consuming a hgh meat diet with little fruit you get a 'double' because the meat creates a metabolic acidosis while there is little fruit to buffer it.

Studies show that there only is a weak correlation (and sometimes reverse) between protein intake and bone loss.

Do you believe that the reason neanderthal was shorter than erectus had more to do with neanderthal's high meat intake, or was it more due to erectus' frequent fruit consumption (or a combination)?

This must be multifactorial as well.
Recent centuries have shown that there is a great correlation between diet and height. And what is most striking about our current diet, is the constant availability of lots of easy available energy.
The leading role of energy is confirmed by what babies need to grow rapidly; their natural diet (human milk) is richer in pure energy than protein. (containing 4 times more fat plus 7 fold more carbs than protein)

So, yes, I think that regarding height energy is key, and that a higher protein intake will be at the expense of pure energy (fat and carbs). In that respect, consuming less meat and more fruits (and nuts) will be an advantage.
Regarding muscle volume, a high protein diet is an advantage.

Another factor is temperature; in cold climates it is an advantage to be less tall, and more sturdy to minimalize the loss of bodyheat.

[nick]

RRM,

I was talking to someone about your osteporosis theory and they said that "raw whole milk does not produce the same results as pasteurized, homogenized, reduced-fat, and fortified milk."

I don't think that makes sense at all because how does that affect calcium level in the milk? Perhaps raw milk has less calcium and fortified milk has more added to it. This doesn't negate the relationship between calcium and bone health. But cheese still has tons of calcium!

I went to the USDA database and didn't know which option for cow's milk to select to find out more the calicum contents.

They also said that when it comes to osteoporosis and lower BMD that this is because the studies were done on people living stressful sedentary lives who ate refined and processed foods.

Is that a factor? Not big enough though?

They also said that: "Wai's claims linking calcium to osteoporosis are based on epidemiological studies, the least reliable form of research known to man. There are infinite factors that could account for the differences. We could draw an unlimited number of correlations besides calcium. Epidemiology is one step away from pure junk science."

I personally don't think they have looked at the facts and understood the science behind osteoporosis and calcium. There are many factors, but calcium is the strongest!

[RRM]

I don't think that makes sense at all because how does that affect calcium level in the milk?

Processing does affect the bioavailability of milk.
However, bioavailability is not the issue at all.
Why not?
Because studies have extensively shown that calcium from any kind of dairy product (raw or not) is very effectively absorbed and utilized.
If they reason about bioavailability, they obviously think osteoporosis may be due to a lack of calcium taken up in the bones.
Scientific studies show that in countries where fracture incidence is highest, most calcium is stored in the bones; greatest average bone mineral density.

They also said that when it comes to osteoporosis and lower BMD that this is because the studies were done on people living stressful sedentary lives who ate refined and processed foods.

So, in their view, osteoporosis is not an ilness, but a reversible situation.
Eat unrefined and unprocessed foods, and osteoporosis gets cured.
Thats nonsense, as there is a irreversible process involved in real osteoporosis. Thats why there is no cure.

Wai's claims linking calcium to osteoporosis are based on epidemiological studies, the least reliable form of research known to man. There are infinite factors that could account for the differences. We could draw an unlimited number of correlations besides calcium. Epidemiology is one step away from pure junk science."

Epidemiology useless?
Thats an interesting stance.

[djkvan]

From: http://tuberose.com/Acid_Base_Balance.html

RRM, et al... please comment.

It is undeniable that the body maintains an optimal pH. It is also a fact that the food we eat and the chemicals we ingest impact the body's pH in one direction or the other. To compensate the body must use available resources. The site implicates high acid-forming, high-salt diets in the formation of osteoporosis among other things. Its description of the chemical mechanisms involved in the homeostatic maintenance of pH is quite in depth and its thoroughness reminded me of Wai's free book. Take a look when you get some time if you wish. Here's a selection of the some relevant passages:

Sodium chloride[/b] (as in table salt) induces the body to lose calcium, whereas organic sodium induces a decrease in calcium loss. The reason is that when organic sodium is unavailable to be used to buffer acids, calcium may be used in its place. Sodium chloride actually causes an increase in acidity, which can further deplete calcium. However, when organic sodium is provided to the body, it can be used as a buffer against acids, and losses of calcium will decrease.

The healthy body has several good storehouses of organic sodium including the liver, joints, bile, and the stomach mucosa. If the normal sodium reserves are deficient, the body will extract what it needs from these various sources... The easiest, safest, and often the first source for the body to extract sodium is from the bile.

The less sodium and potassium in the bile, the more acid it becomes. The more acid it becomes, the more likelihood there will be gallstones forming...When acid foods pass into the duodenum and when the bile has turned acid, bicarbonate and enzymes from the pancreas cannot function properly, the food is unable to be fully alkalized, and digestion is greatly inhibited.

When organic sodium is removed from the joints, which is common, then arthritis, osteoporosis, and other bone problems can occur. When sodium is removed form the muscles, the muscles become weak and flabby. When organic sodium is removed from the liver, it becomes weak and inefficient. Serious difficulties can develop such as skin problems, headaches, pains, poor eyesight, depression, mental problems, sugar problems, allergies, blood sugar problems, tiredness, cancer, weak digestion, poor memory, etc.

I believe that food intolerance can originate this cascade of events and lead to bacterial/fungal infections and auto-immune symptoms. I am off eggs and experiencing, as mentioned in other posts, obvious improvement (though I wish to reintroduce more fruit in a week or so ). The last paragraph really sums up what has been going on with me without going into the other list of symptoms I have experienced.

Also re: optimal time of protein consumption:

The lymphatic system sleeps when you sleep and is dependent upon exercise to circulate. The lymphatic system has a protein pool transports amino acids and acts as a waste disposal system. Proteins eaten late in the day can sit in the sleeping lymphatic system and cause congestion, since they are not properly metabolized.

In contrast, proteins eaten for breakfast can signal the protein pool to release amino acids and nutrients for immediate use by the body, because the body knows that more amino acids are on the way. The amino acids released from the protein pool can then be used for energy and to build the tissue integrity. The newly digested amino acids replenish the pool, since the body (and therefore the lymphatic system) is still active eight hours later in the day, when the protein has been digested and processed by the liver.

....proteins eaten late in the day at 7 p.m. can interfere with the restful and regenerative alkaline sleep cycle, which peaks around 3 a.m., eight hours later. They can also interfere with the liver's cleanse cycle. In effect, proteins eaten later in the day, after 2 or 3 p.m., cause many problems. They are not properly digested or completely metabolized during sleep and thus contribute to a toxic overload of the lymph and blood.

When proteins are eaten early in the day, the body provides its best digestive powers, such as hydrochloric acid, protease enzymes and chymotrypsin. The factors required to construct these enzymes have been recharged or renewed during the fasting/sleep period. If carbohydrate foods are eaten consistently for breakfast, components of the protein enzymes are not made available and are used for other enzymatic duties, thus weakening the body's ability to handle proteins eaten later in the day.

The protein-digesting enzymes are available in the morning, unless the dietary pattern teaches the body to be prepared for morning carbohydrates. In contrast, the protease enzymes are not as readily available in the evening, if their components have already been used for other body processes. If proteins are eaten late in the day, the enzymes have to be built, depriving other enzymatic functions. Because enzymes are a major factor in longevity, eating protein early in the day conserves and supports the enzymatic functions.

This suggests that late consumption of proteins will interfere with the body's reconstruction efforts at night, resting or not, and that reconstruction naturally occurs regardless of time of day protein is taken up to 3pm (I'm assuming in the absence of vigorous exercise). I always found myself awakening during the liver cleanse cycle (1-3am part due to egg intolerance (I always mentioned in my posts how I seemed to feel better with less protein and suspected eggs to be a problem, but could never seem to unmask it), part due, if the above is true, to systemic fatigue, again, my liver enzyme has been elevated for months) I did my best to select the most relevant passages out of concern for length of post.

I realize that enzyme availability isn't an issue when consuming raw protein. Brain fart. But in terms of someone in transition to Wai, the info is useful I imagine.

[RRM]

It is undeniable that the body maintains an optimal pH.

Not an optimal pH, but many, depending on where you are in the body.

It is also a fact that the food we eat and the chemicals we ingest impact the body's pH in one direction or the other.

No, the pH is always very strictly regulated, because its essential to survive.
Without this tight regulation, we will drop dead within seconds.

Sodium chloride (as in table salt) induces the body to lose calcium

Excretion is not equal to a loss (as in negative).
the more calcium is consumed, the more is excreted.
Why?
Thats where urinating is for: to excrete waste materials, toxins and excessive minerals and trace lements.

If the normal sodium reserves are deficient, the body will extract what it needs from these various sources

A sodium deficient diet is an extremely rare diet.
Our body excretes sodium because its needs to do so to maintain homeostasis.

The lymphatic system sleeps when you sleep and is dependent upon exercise to circulate.

Thats absolute nonsense.
Especially when you sleep, and under the influence of ACTH and cortisol,
the lymphatic system transports protein from the skin to the liver.

If carbohydrate foods are eaten consistently for breakfast, components of the protein enzymes are not made available and are used for other enzymatic duties, thus weakening the body's ability to handle proteins eaten later in the day.

This guy doesnt know what he is talking about...
There are loads of protein-decomposing enzymes that are extremely specific;
for splitting tryptophan and methionine, or tyrosine and valine for example, and cannot be sued for other purposes.

In contrast, the protease enzymes are not as readily available in the evening

Nonsense.
Where are the references?

[djkvan]

Perhaps it would have been more optimal for me to say that the body attempts to maintain an optimal pH (again implied). I realize that the article is unreferenced, that's why I asked you to comment. I have a background in biochemistry/anatomy/physiology, so as I scanned I didn't see anything that raised a red flag. I would assume that this is written for someone with a fundamental background in the area being discussed, thus the latitude I afford.

The lymphatic system sleeps when you sleep and is dependent upon exercise to circulate.

Thats absolute nonsense. Especially when you sleep, and under the influence of ACTH and cortisol, the lymphatic system transports protein from the skin to the liver.

I imagine that the author was implying that by comparison to its rate of circulation while were are awake and active , the lymphatic system sleeps when we do (at least this is what I understood his statement to mean).

pH is always very strictly regulated, because its essential to survive.

pH can fluctuate one way or the other in the body. Again it is a matter of interpreting the author's meaning. I believe the author also states that pH is strictly regulated. But in terms of moment to moment fluctuations pH can vary dramatically as in the surface mucosa of the mouth after a sip of OJ or at a minuscule level, as in the blood pH going from 7.47 - 7.46. Both instances require homeostatic intervention, whether from the external or internal environment.

Excretion is not equal to a loss (as in negative). the more calcium is consumed, the more is excreted.

If the body excretes more calcium than it absorbs over a given period of time in an effort to combat poor diet and pH maintenance efforts, that is certainly a loss and the beginnings of degeneration.

Our body excretes sodium because its needs to do so to maintain homeostasis

...as in pH, one of the requirements of human life, besides moisture, temperature, oxygen, nutrient

There are loads of protein-decomposing enzymes that are extremely specific

...which require time for the body to synthesize. Much of the body's repair/construction occurs while we are sleeping, no? It is the optimal time for regeneration, especially for the liver. The organ clock suggest that although all body functions continue throughout the 24 hours, but that individual systems reach their "peak" of activity at specific points in the day.


Do you believe that the chemistry in the article is flawed?

[RRM]

the author was implying that by comparison to its rate of circulation while were are awake and active

No, he said that "protein...sit in the sleeping lymphatic system and cause congestion, since they are not properly metabolized", during the night.
The lymphe system is like the blood system.
They both fully function normally when we sleep.
Sure, our heart beats faster when we are physically active, but that doesnt accelerate the processes going on in the blood.
Only processes involved in physical activity, such as glycogen > glucose > energy etc.

pH can vary dramatically as in the surface mucosa of the mouth after a sip of OJ

But thats not inside the body in the sense of in cells, blood, lymphe etc.
Its comparable to the surface of your skin.
Inside the body (in cells, blood, lymphe etc) the pH is very strictly regulated.

as in the blood pH going from 7.47 - 7.46

That is very strict regulation.
Food does not change that.

If the body excretes more calcium than it absorbs over a given period of time in an effort to combat poor diet and pH maintenance efforts,
that is certainly a loss and the beginnings of degeneration.

That is not certain, at all.
Excess absorbed calcium is temporarily stored in the bones until it can all be excreted,
regulated by a number of hormones all working together (with oppositional and complementary actions).
This to prevent the blood calcium level from going up or down too much, as that might become lethal.
Then you will have excretion exceeding absorption over a given period of time.
Not degeneration, but preventing disease.

There are loads of protein-decomposing enzymes that are extremely specific

...which require time for the body to synthesize.

They are synthesized 24/7.
This is not restricted to certain times.

Do you believe that the chemistry in the article is flawed?

This guy has clearly shown that he does not know what he is talking about.

[djkvan]

[EDIT] Moved from another thread [/EDIT}

As with osteoclast activity in osteoporosis, the body will draw calcium from the core of the teeth if dietary sources are insufficient to combat internal acidification.

[RRM]

As with osteoclast activity in osteoporosis, the body will draw calcium from the core of the teeth if dietary sources are insufficient to combat internal acidification.

Lower bone mineral density (BMD) may be caused by overactive osteoclasts, but this is not a disease, but a temporary condition.
A lower BMD is reversible, but the disease osteoporosis is not.
In osteoporosis, there is a lack of osteoblast (activity) to repair the bone matrix that needs to retain calcium.
Using teeth as a source of calcium seems very unlikely if you have so much skeletal bone at your disposal that may hold massive amounts of excess calcium.
Lacking dietary calcium is also unlikely.

[djkvan]

In osteoporosis, there is a lack of osteoblast (activity) to repair the bone matrix that needs to retain calcium

In osteoporosis osteoclast activity "outpaces" osteoblast activity. Hormonal imbalance (e.g. with estrogen and progesterone) affects the performance of both types of cell.

Using teeth as a source of calcium seems very unlikely if you have so much skeletal bone at your disposal that may hold massive amounts of excess calcium.

My whole situation is quite unlikely. The body will only steal so much from one source before it moves onto another, I imagine. At this point I have visible deterioration of the C4 and C5 vertebral bodies (never had neck trauma), for instance.

Lacking dietary calcium is also unlikely.

Calcium/magnesium loss outpacing dietary calcium is entirely likely as a result of prolonged sympathetic nervous system activity due to physiological/psychological stress (i.e. undiagnosed chronic multiple allergies) which leads to fast cellular oxidation.

[RRM]

In osteoporosis, there is a lack of osteoblast (activity) to repair the bone matrix that needs to retain calcium

In osteoporosis osteoclast activity "outpaces" osteoblast activity. Hormonal imbalance (e.g. with estrogen and progesterone) affects the performance of both types of cell.

I know, there is confusion about what osteoporosis is, as the definition has been changed a few times.
Some consider a BMD lower than a certain average as osteoporosis.
I stick to the old definition, in which osteoporosis is defined as a disease characterized by the inability of the body to repair or replace old bone,
resulting in brittle bones.
Some people consider the lower BMD in astronauts as osteoporosis, but in as much as these astronauts do not suffer from a muscle disease,
making their muscles weaker, they do not suffer from a bone disease either.
All they lack is the stimuli to grow new and repair old muscles / bone, due to a lack of gravity.
The moment they are back at earth, the stimuli are there again, and their recovery begins.

If osteoclast activity simply outpaces osteoblast activity, this is not a disease, until its a persisting condition.
In al of us BMD fluctuates, so that in all of us at some point osteoclast activity outpaces osteoblast activity, because that is how BMD decreases.
If osteoporosis was only about osteoclast activity outpacing osteoblast activity,
we would have a definite cure, as we would only have to sufficiently slow down osteoclast activity, right?

Lacking dietary calcium is also unlikely.

Calcium/magnesium loss outpacing dietary calcium is entirely likely as a result of prolonged sympathetic nervous system activity due to physiological/psychological stress (i.e. undiagnosed chronic multiple allergies) which leads to fast cellular oxidation.

If there is a hole in your bucket, you can blame the loss of water on the tap, for not supplying you with sufficient water, of course...
Still, its not about the tap lacking water.

[djkvan]

Animal protein tends to leach calcium from the bones, leading to its excretion in the urine. Animal proteins are high in sulfur-containing amino acids, especially cysteine and methionine. Sulfur is converted to sulfate, which tends to acidify the blood. During the process of neutralizing this acid, bone dissolves into the bloodstream and filters through the kidneys into the urine. Meats and eggs contain two to five times more of these sulfur-containing amino acids than are found in plant foods.3

3. Breslau NA, Brinkley L, Hill KD, Pak CYC. Relationship of animal protein-rich diet to kidney stone formation and calcium metabolism. J Clin Endocrinol 1988;66:140-6.

[RRM]

Thats not news.
There are several studies that showed this.
Other studies show that increased protein intake reduces bone loss in osteoporotic patients (Schurtz et al),
and a lower bone mineral density in vegetarians compared to omnivores (Lau et al)
The question is:
What does that mean regarding irreversible osteoporosis? (the disease for which there is no cure)

[djkvan]

The patients in Schurtz et al received protein supplements. It doesn't say meat.

Re: Lau et al... the only difference in BMD was at the hip in some cases. Specifically... BMD in vegetarians appeared to be positively correlated with energy, protein and calcium intake; and negatively associated with urinary sodium/creatinine levels. Essentially the vegetarians who didn't eat enough had issues.

If initial increase in BMD in SAD contributes to osteoporosis, then how can this be a bad thing. I thought a lower bone mineral density was a good thing in some cases. As far as incurable disease goes... that's a bit glass half empty thinking. I would say "yet to be cured". Some say that they may have this whole "death disease" thing cured soon.