Fasting for Acne / blood protein / kwashiorkor / edema

[Havas]

You guys might remember my diary/posts from a few months ago. With time my acne did improve with the Wai diet, but never closed to stopped. About a month ago, dropped the diet all together.

After dropping the diet, my acne got *slightly* worse, but never to its original state. I'm currently on accutane (for the last 30 days), but it's doing *zero*, I'm not even gettting the dryness everyone refers to. It's almost like it's a placebo does (but it's from the pharmacy, and labeled etc.)

So I'm keen to keep looking for a solution, while giving the accutane some time. If one of them works, then I'll be happy (even if I'm not sure which one)

Looking back at when I was doing the Wai diet, I followed it 100% but some days I found it hard to manage my energy levels. In fact, probably five or six days I didn't really have the chance (or forsight to prepare) to eat any Wai food, so I didn't eat at all. I'm wondering if perhaps this helped me.

Since dropping the wai diet, I've put on a few kilo's (even though it's only a month ) so I'm thinking about trying a 10-14 day fast. I read that it's quite safe, and there are a lots of proponents for varies ailments (including acne).

I guess if it works, it will be a question of introducing "safe" foods. Although, due to the unsustainability of fasting it might get difficult.

Since most of you guys seem to have solved your acne mystery, what are your thoughts on fasting for acne control?

[fictor]

Fasting is unnecessary and potentially harmful, in my opinion. If you do not eat anything at all, your body will use your muscle for energy. This will cause you to loose muscle mass, and can even cause acne by itself.

If, as you say, some of the time on the Wai diet you did not eat at all, this might actually be the very reason the diet did not work for you.

My advice is ditch the fasting and give Wai another chance!

[RRM]

Yes, fasting has adverse effects (muscles turned over in energy), and that may also be the case regarding acne, as due to that conversion the blood / lymphe protein level will increase every now and then. Any temporary increase may cause acne.

Total fasting is unnecessary. Fruits never cause acne. What you can do is start with a relative low protein intake for 2 weeks (say just 50 grams of egg yolk / raw fish daily), and then gradually increase that. Maybe your testosterone level or water retention is readily boosted by protein.

[Havas]

My advice is ditch the fasting and give Wai another chance!

I'm really happy it works for you guys, but I gave it a solid two months without a mouthful of compromise. So if I were to do it again, it'd be the same thing, and if it was the same thing, I'd get the same results.

Maybe your testosterone level or water retention is readily boosted by protein.

Interesting. I had a blood test not long ago, and was told I have elevated blood protein levels. Looking at the mayoclinic website I read:

A high-protein diet does not cause high levels of protein in blood. However, severe malnutrition can cause a decrease in total blood protein.

So here's the hypothesis I'm working with now: Maybe this high blood protein levels are the cause of my acne? And not directly caused by the food I eat. Which is why the Wai diet did little for me. The cause would be inflammation as the mayoclinic suggests -- which I would have due to a previous gastrointestinal ailment and surgery.

So now, the only course of action I can think of is intentional fasting (malnutrition) that would lower the protein levels (and probably why I noticed gains after not eating while on the wai) but it sounds extremely short lived and not like a sound idea.

So in light of this, what are your thoughts? What should I do?

(the other thing to note, is I'm perfectly healthy. My only symptom is acne. I have no problems going for extended runs -- or long distance swimming. I feel 100%. I've just never been able to get rid of my acne. Not topicals. Not antibiotic's. Not massive doses of B5. etc)

[fictor]

My advice is ditch the fasting and give Wai another chance!

I'm really happy it works for you guys, but I gave it a solid two months without a mouthful of compromise. So if I were to do it again, it'd be the same thing, and if it was the same thing, I'd get the same results.

As you said in your first post, you had trouble controlling your bloodsugar while on Wai, and sometimes you did not eat at all. As both RRM and I pointed out, this can cause acne because your body will decompose your muscle tissue for energy.

If my understanding of how this works is right, then this might be what is causing you elevated blood protein levels. Could this be, RRM?

[Havas]

As you said in your first post, you had trouble controlling your bloodsugar while on Wai, and sometimes you did not eat at all. As both RRM and I pointed out, this can cause acne because your body will decompose your muscle tissue for energy.

If my understanding of how this works is right, then this might be what is causing you elevated blood protein levels. Could this be, RRM?

It's possible, but extremely unlikely. The body only begins that stage when it has reached a critical level of amino acids (as you can imagine, breaking down muscle isn't exactly the bodies first call of action). And even so, it's only capable/will break down a maximum of 30g of protein over a 24 hour period.

I'm not sure if that would've happened while on the Wai or not with me, I don't think I ate that bad. And missing a day here and there shouldn't trigger it. But even so, it can't cause high level of blood protein. As the protein is already in the body, and it's getting broken down. So what you would see is amino acids. But they'd never be high, as the body only breaks down the absolute bear minimum to function.

[RRM]

A high-protein diet does not cause high levels of protein in blood.

True, high protein diets result in major conversion of protein into energy, and not in (medically) ELEVATED blood protein levels.
However:
Blood protein (amino acids) levels widely fluctuate in the blood, from 100% up to 900%!!! So, even when the level of a certain amino acid is in the upper range, but still within the range of medically normal (100% to 900%), then your level is not considered to be elevated...
Yet, it is relatively high...
So, technically this guy is right, but there are substantial differences between normal low levels and normal high levels.

However, severe malnutrition can cause a decrease in total blood protein.

Absolutely. Fasting can cause elevated blood protein levels as well.

Maybe this high blood protein levels are the cause of my acne?

Very likely, yes.

And not directly caused by the food I eat.

It is much more likely that it IS caused by the food you eat.

Which is why the Wai diet did little for me.

How strict did you do the diet?
How much protein did you eat?
How strictly did you control your blood sugar level?

So now, the only course of action I can think of is intentional fasting

No, as that will cause the breakdown of muscle protein and therefore an increased blood protein level.

So in light of this, what are your thoughts? What should I do?

Let us analyze your version of the wai diet first.
What do you eat exactly on any given (Wai) day?

[RRM]

My advice is ditch the fasting and give Wai another chance!

I'm really happy it works for you guys, but I gave it a solid two months without a mouthful of compromise. So if I were to do it again, it'd be the same thing, and if it was the same thing, I'd get the same results.

As you said in your first post, you had trouble controlling your bloodsugar while on Wai, and sometimes you did not eat at all. As both RRM and I pointed out, this can cause acne because your body will decompose your muscle tissue for energy.

If my understanding of how this works is right, then this might be what is causing you elevated blood protein levels. Could this be, RRM?

Absolutely.
Thanks for pointing that out fic!
It is key to preventing an increase in the blood protein level.

I gave it a solid two months without a mouthful of compromise

What does that mean?
You didnt do the diet that strictly?
100% is key here...

[RRM]

It's possible, but extremely unlikely. The body only begins that stage when it has reached a critical level of amino acids (as you can imagine, breaking down muscle isn't exactly the bodies first call of action). And even so, it's only capable/will break down a maximum of 30g of protein over a 24 hour period.

No, every single second that your blood sugar level is low, amino acids are converted into glucose as keeping the glucose level up is the body's FIRST priority.
You think the low (protein) amino acid level is the trigger, but the low glucose level is a far more potent trigger.

You think 30 gram is little?
Not for the blood. Think relative (to as how much protein there is in the blood), then 30 gram really is a lot.
Any increase can cause a pimple.

I don't think I ate that bad.

That is not the issue.
The only way to find out whether this diet works for you, is doing it 100%.
Doing it 99% may have exactly the same results as doing it 0%.
Only 100% strict can do the trick for sure.

And missing a day here and there shouldn't trigger it.

Oh absolutely!
That is because its about osmosis; about the relative presence of hydrophylic substances; any diversion can turn around the process.
If, for example you have been strict for a week and then eat something wrong, the levels were relatively low so that any increase has a relative big impact.
(the difference between 10 and 10+1 is much bigger than the difference between 100 and 100 + 1)

But even so, it can't cause high level of blood protein. As the protein is already in the body, and it's getting broken down. So what you would see is amino acids. But they'd never be high, as the body only breaks down the absolute bear minimum to function.

Huh?
I dont follow your reasoning here...
Please explain.

[Havas]

How strict did you do the diet?

Extremely. The first week I ate some unshelled nuts and some store bought juice. But then when I found out I shouldn't, I stopped doing that. The next 7 weeks, I followed the diet perfectly.

How much protein did you eat?

Every morning I'd eat 3 or 4 egg yolks. And maybe every second day, I'd have some raw fish (salmon).

How strictly did you control your blood sugar level?

Very poorly. I didn't give it much effort, I didn't think that it was important as long as I didn't have any much foods. I tended to have big breakfasts and big dinners. But nothing in between. (Although sometimes I'd bring an apple or orange to snack on for lunch)

Let us analyze your version of the wai diet first.
What do you eat exactly on any given (Wai) day?

I was never into the whole eat-the-same-thing every day thing. I pretty much just ate what ever was around that I could get. The only consistency was my morning egg yolks. (For the first week, I also ate egg whites but I stopped that too).

I also was big into the green apples, I'd eat about 4 of them a day.

I gave it a solid two months without a mouthful of compromise

What does that mean?
You didnt do the diet that strictly?
100% is key here...

Means I did it 100% strict. Without compromise. I didn't have a mouthful of crap

The only way to find out whether this diet works for you, is doing it 100%.
Doing it 99% may have exactly the same results as doing it 0%.
Only 100% strict can do the trick for sure.

I did do it 100%. The only thing I perhaps didn't do was keep my blood sugar constant, but I didn't know that was such a big deal

You think 30 gram is little?
Not for the blood. Think relative (to as how much protein there is in the blood), then 30 gram really is a lot.

It really is tiny. And that's not 30 grams of protein the blood, that's 30 grams of protein getting broken down over a period of 24 hours. While the liver constantly is converting the byproduct into glucose.

Huh?
I dont follow your reasoning here...
Please explain.

I'm saying that not eating, cannot elevate blood protein level. The body breaks down muscle protein into amino acids, which are right away converted by the liver into sugar.


--

Anyway, I respect your opinion so I don't want to turn this into a debate.

I've tried literally dozens of ideas, and followed the all as strictly as I believe I could've. They're all so time consuming, most of them say give it months. So trying them all, I've spent years of my like (as in, like 6 or 7) with no results to speak of yet. I'll keep trying things, and I'm open minded (Why I'm at this site). But I don't want to get bogged down on an idea for too long, that's not working.

So I'm happy to redo the Wai, but I'm not sure what would be different this time? Would keeping my blood sugar constant really make that much of a difference?

Or maybe you're aware of a way to keep inflammation down? Perhaps that would be a far more effective way at lowering blood protein.

[RRM]

Every morning I'd eat 3 or 4 egg yolks. And maybe every second day, I'd have some raw fish (salmon).

That may have been too little. Can you please specify how much fish you ate?

I gave it a solid two months without a mouthful of compromise

What does that mean?
You didnt do the diet that strictly?
100% is key here...

Means I did it 100% strict. Without compromise. I didn't have a mouthful of crap

Ha ha, ok, i get it

that's 30 grams of protein getting broken down over a period of 24 hours.

That IS alot!
That amount is on top of the effects of your daily protein intake.
30 grams of protein is as much as in 140 grams of tuna, or 150 grams of salmon...
I give you an example:
If i eat 130 grams of tuna daily, my skin is clear. If i double the amount of protein, im covered in acne.

I'm saying that not eating, cannot elevate blood protein level.

You know what the most striking symptom is of severe malnutrition?
Stomach-edema. Its those swollen bellies that you see on tv, when they film starving kids in Somalia or Ethiopia.
It is a medically established fact that this is due to edema caused by proteins released from muscle and organ tissue that are converted into energy.

So I'm happy to redo the Wai, but I'm not sure what would be different this time?

This time you would have to stick to one of the most important rules (please reread the sample diet rules); keeping your blood sugar level at the right level constantly.
Also, you would have to consume sufficient protein.

Or maybe you're aware of a way to keep inflammation down?

The inflammation is the result of the increased water-pressure on the stuck sebum. No water retention = no inflammation. And that water retention may very well be caused by consuming too little energy at times.

[Havas]

Every morning I'd eat 3 or 4 egg yolks. And maybe every second day, I'd have some raw fish (salmon).

That may have been too little. Can you please specify how much fish you ate?

A typical serving of fish (salmon) was 100-150g for me. Which I'd eat every second or third day. I purposely tried to keep my protein low, perhaps I did it too much. Assuming I try get all my protein from egg yolks, how much would you recommend I eat per day?

You know what the most striking symptom is of severe malnutrition?
Stomach-edema. Its those swollen bellies that you see on tv, when they film starving kids in Somalia or Ethiopia.
It is a medically established fact that this is due to edema caused by proteins released from muscle and organ tissue that are converted into energy.

Some would disagree with you.

one of the most important rules (please reread the sample diet rules); keeping your blood sugar level at the right level constantly.

Ok, I'm officially back on the wai -- this time with focus on keeping stable energy levels. I'll give it two weeks. How many egg yolks per day you think I should aim for? And maybe I should try get protein from a bigger variety of sources?

[RRM]

I'm saying that not eating, cannot elevate blood protein level.

You know what the most striking symptom is of severe malnutrition? Stomach-edema

Some would disagree with you.

Your link is to an article about kwashiorkor, which is a disease (symptoms: 'flaky paint' dermatosis and edema in the legs and/or arms). This disease is very hard to treat; most children die, even when treated.
Im talking about 'hunger-edema' (swollen bellies, whereas the rest of the body is a skeleton); the direct consequences of malnutrition in areas where there is a famine. Not a disease. No skin problems. Pure malnutrition, which is effectively resolved (90%; sometimes rescue simply comes too late) by proper nutrition.
Remember Somalia, Ethiopia?

I'll give it two weeks.

Whatever you want.

How many egg yolks per day you think I should aim for?

If you eat egg yolks only (no fish) then about 6 daily.
If you eat 50 grams of fish as well, then just 3 yolks daily, as you did.
But thats only for the first 2 weeks. After that, you should increase the amount through experimentation.

maybe I should try get protein from a bigger variety of sources?

Your combination of fish and egg yolks is perfect.

[fictor]

Also, Havas, remember to rest after eating proteins! If you have the eggs in the morning, you shoulkd not run of too work/school right afterwords. This can cause proteins to not get fully digested into single amino acids, causing water retention.

[Havas]

Your link is to an article about kwashiorkor, which is a disease (symptoms: 'flaky paint' dermatosis and edema in the legs and/or arms). This disease is very hard to treat; most children die, even when treated.
Im talking about 'hunger-edema' (swollen bellies, whereas the rest of the body is a skeleton); the direct consequences of malnutrition in areas where there is a famine. Not a disease. No skin problems. Pure malnutrition, which is effectively resolved (90%; sometimes rescue simply comes too late) by proper nutrition.
Remember Somalia, Ethiopia?

Yes, Kwashiorkor is what it's called. Unless you can find me a link about "Hunger edema", I'm pretty sure we're talking of the same thing.


As for the diet, it's going alright. I have not noticed any change yet, but I should take a picture of my acne, so I can notice any subtle differences. The first 4 or 5 days are the worst Massive real-food cravings. After that it seems alright.