Let us not forget what started this discussion about hunger edema and kwashiokor:
Havas wrote:I'm saying that not eating, cannot elevate blood protein level.
But it has been known for decades that
"
Factors other than protein intake per se can bring about an increase in serum protein levels above normal averages even in the presence of mild to moderate protein deficiency as determined by diet interview or clinical examination"
Thats is why:
"Serum protein levels cannot be used for the detection of mild to moderate degrees of protein deficiency in humans", as one may be protein deficient with relative high blood / lymphe protein levels (
relative to plasma protein levels),
From Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease: "the increase in extracellular volume causes obvious fluid swelling within the skin, and other interstitual tissues, called hunger edema".
(
"increase in serum proteins appears to be an increase in both albumin and globulin fractions"... "phenomena of high serum protein values in the presence of mild to moderate protein deficiency")
Havas wrote:Where are you getting this from?
Kwashiorkor is still not fully understood
"Among the symptoms mentioned by Williams,
peripheral oedema and skin lesions predominate. The clinical appearance of hypopigmentation, hyperpigmentation and desquamation was her main focus for the differential diagnosis, and this view is maintained to the present day"
...
"when 'flaky paint' dermatosis is seen in
(1)a malnourished child with oedema, it is pathognomonic of
(2)kwashiorkor"
(note: 1 can have 2, but 1 and 2 are not the same)
...
"is still true that most children die after initiation of treatment"
"
Hunger edema would be considered as hypoproteinemic edema...
Kwashiokor is a particular form of undernourishment; after infants have been weaned, they receive cereals as their main source of nourishment. This ultimately leads to underdevelopment and the formation of edema"
Hunger edema is easy to treat because it has a clear cause.
Methionine was one of the 1st medicins for 'hunger edema', because its the rarest of all 20 amino acids; the body; by supplementing it the body can re-use the protein in the lymphe and blood (that causes the edema) for (re)construction purposes.
Havas wrote:Link me to a page about "Hunger Edema" rather than a dictionary that mentions hunger can be a cause
Thats is a
medical dictionary and this page is specifically about edema.
It lists hunger and kwashiorkor as separate causes.
Thats pretty clear cut, isnt it?
Wikipedia says kwashiokor is "a type of malnutrition with controversial causes".
Starvation is caused by a lack of food. No controversy there.
There are numerous accounts of hunger edema throughout history (WW1, 2nd world war camps, 1877 India, Irish Potato Famine).
From
another list of medical terms:
"War-edema: Nutritional edema, a disorder of nutrition due to long-continued diet deficiency of protein and/or calories, and marked by anasarca and edema; called also alimentary edema, famine edema and hunger edema".
Havas wrote:RRM wrote:regarding kwashiorkor; scientists still struggle with finding the actual cause and proper treatment.
I'm pretty sure it's still considered a disease if mechanisms and treatment are unknown.
Thats what im saying.
Anyway, they do know it is malnutrition of sorts.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
'
of sorts', very adequately put.
"Kwashiorkor is a type of malnutrition with controversial causes"
"possible role of aflatoxins in the pathogenesis of the disease"
"inflammatory character of kwashiorkor"
"associated liver disease"
"role of reactive oxygen species"
"the condition (kwashiokor) cannot be represented as a "simple" protein-energy deficiency"
Havas wrote:
You mean like this?:
Oops. Nevermind, that's kwashiorkor.
Because wikipedia says its a kwashiohkor child?
We need a picture of a malnourished child with edema? Here you got one.
But has that child actually been diagnosed with having kwashiokor?
What makes you think that this child has the symptoms that are classical for kwashiokor?
It does
not have
peripheral edema, and i cannot see any skin lesions / 'flaky paint' dermatosis.
What you see is a malnourished child with edema, which may be simply hunger edema, or it may have kwashiokor if it is specifically diagnosed that way. (or other disease).
Of course its easy enough to interchange different malnutrition-related diseases if edema is involved, as they all look alike, right?