Vitamin B1 / thiamine

[Al]

According to the nutrient calculator, 100 grams of raw chicken yolk + 100 grams of brazil nuts + 100 grams of dried figs yield 1.3600 mg of vitamin B1 (thiamin) per day, and the RDA for a 19 to 24 year old male is 1.50 mg. Whether eating 100 grams of brazil nuts per day is healthy seems questionable. You also recommend 50 grams of combined animal food - eating 100 grams of raw yolk exceeds this recommendation.

Two other good sources of vitamin B1 you mention in your nutrient list include mangosteen and durian, yet these options are not available on the nutrient calculator. I once went to Sri Lanka and ate mangosteen fresh from the tree but I've never seen them on the streets of London. Never heard of durian.

I've been following this diet to a certain extent for a few weeks and have developed a red swelling on my tongue. One of the possible causes and, it seems to me, the most likely cause, is thiamin deficiency.

Can you please explain why you value fruit so much more highly than vegetables? Raw courgette, fennel, radish, carrot, turnip, beetroot, for example, contain valuable nutrients, minerals and antioxidants, as far as I am aware. Again, these options are not available on your nutrient calculator so I have no way of knowing if they might provide sufficient thiamin. I suspect they do and that eating raw vegetables as well as raw fruit is a good way of remaining healthy. My enamel felt like it was eroding after only three or four days on the Wai diet.

Thanks for the forum and the advice. I'm very glad I discovered this site and want to get the most out of it.

[RRM]

According to the nutrient calculator, 100 grams of raw chicken yolk + 100 grams of brazil nuts + 100 grams of dried figs yield 1.3600 mg of vitamin B1 (thiamin) per day, and the RDA for a 19 to 24 year old male is 1.50 mg.

According to the same calculator, that same input yields only 1258 kcal, which is less than 50% of the energy required.
All fruits contain vitamin B1 too.
Just submit a TOTAL version of this diet to this calculator.

Two other good sources of vitamin B1 you mention in your nutrient list include mangosteen and durian, yet these options are not available on the nutrient calculator.

True, the calculator is far from complete.

Never heard of durian.

Durio zibethinus Murr. (Durian, or Civet)
Some googling will yield lots of info on this fruit.

I've been following this diet to a certain extent for a few weeks and have developed a red swelling on my tongue.

Probably due to anti-nutrients from unripe fruits.
Happens a lot.
Just eat very ripe fruits.

Can you please explain why you value fruit so much more highly than vegetables?

Vegetables contain much more anti-nutrients.

I have no way of knowing if they might provide sufficient thiamin.

You do. Just put enough fruits and animal food in the calculator so that the total supplies you with enough energy.

[Al]

Thanks RRM

[Kasper]

"Animal food contains all the necessary nutrients except for containing far too little (or no) vitamin C and beta-carotene."

FDA Men, 19-24yr (177cm/70in, 72kg/160lb)

Your selection:
[Item 1] 100g (grams) of Tuna (Thunnus spp.), [2][1],
[Item 2] 6units of Chicken egg yolk (Gallus domesticus), raw, [1].

Vitamins
Vitamin A, RE (Retinol Equivalent)......1031.66mcg ......1000.00mcg
-Beta-carotene.............................0.00mcg ............?mcg no data:1,2
Vitamin B1, Thiamin........................0.32mg ..........1.50mg
Vitamin B2, Riboflavin.....................0.79mg ..........1.70mg
Vitamin B3, Niacin/Nicotinamide............8.51mg .........19.00mg
Vitamin B5, Pantothenic acid...............4.45mg .............?mg
Vitamin B6, Pyridoxine.....................0.83mg ..........2.00mg
Vitamin B8, Biotin.........................0.00mcg ............?mcg no data:1,2
Vitamin B9, Folic acid...................145.43mcg .......200.00mcg
Vitamin B12................................7.34mcg .........2.00mcg
Vitamin C, Ascorbic acid...................1.00mg .........60.00mg
Vitamin D................................329.00IU ........400.00IU
Vitamin E..................................3.64mg .........10.00mg
Vitamin K..................................0.00mcg ........70.00mcg no data:1,2

This doesn't seem true to me according to this numbers.
I would say we need vitamin B and E from fruit.

[Kasper]

I´ve been talking with a doctor for a couple of hours about this diet yesterday .

After some time we agreed about many things. Not about that it's healthier but more that it is not unhealthy. He actually said that this diet is not so far away from what we call in the Netherlands "De schaal van Vijf". A rough guide about eating healthy.

The only thing he worried about was the B-vitamins. Especially vitamin B1. If you don't get enough of this vitamin you can get the Wernicke's encephalopathy syndrome. This syndrome is chronic so we should care about this I think.

Normally people get Vitamin B1 mostly out of pork and of the second group of foods of "De schaal van Vijf". This group consist of all the high starch food: Potato , rice, bread. These foods are also high in vitamin B1.

He said that you can get far too easily not enough vitamin B1 on this diet. Maybe if you eat the right sort of fruits, but you also have fruits very low in vitamin B1.

I've done some test on the nutritional calculator, and for example this diet which consist of apples, tuna, eggs and olive oil is far too low in many B vitamins:

RDA: FDA Women, 19-24yr (164cm/65in, 58kg/128lb)

Your selection:
[Item 1] 2000g (grams) of Apple (Malus sylvestris), no skin, [1],
[Item 2] 100g (grams) of Olive oil (Olea europea), [1],
[Item 3] 60g (grams) of Tuna (Thunnus spp.), [2][1],
[Item 4] 6units of Chicken egg yolk (Gallus domesticus), raw, [1].

Weight:.................................2259.60g

Nutrients...............................Quantity..............RDA

Energy..................................2445.36kcal .....2200.00kcal
Carbohydrate.............................298.57g ..............?g
Fat......................................146.24g ..............?g
Protein...................................32.59g ..........46.00g
Water...................................1774.71ml .............?ml
Fiber.....................................38.00g ..............?g

Vitamins
Vitamin A, RE (Retinol Equivalent).......931.66mcg .......800.00mcg
-Beta-carotene.............................0.00mcg ............?mcg no data:1,2,3,4
Vitamin B1, Thiamin........................0.66mg ..........1.10mg
Vitamin B2, Riboflavin.....................0.93mg ..........1.30mg
Vitamin B3, Niacin/Nicotinamide............6.91mg .........15.00mg
Vitamin B5, Pantothenic acid...............5.39mg .............?mg
Vitamin B6, Pyridoxine.....................1.65mg ..........1.60mg
Vitamin B8, Biotin.........................0.00mcg ............?mcg no data:1,2,3,4
Vitamin B9, Folic acid...................145.42mcg .......180.00mcg
Vitamin B12................................5.64mcg .........2.00mcg
Vitamin C, Ascorbic acid..................80.59mg .........60.00mg
Vitamin D................................256.36IU ........400.00IU
Vitamin E.................................17.44mg ..........8.00mg
Vitamin K..................................0.00mcg ........60.00mcg no data:1,2,3,4

Minerals and trace elements
Calcium, Ca..............................240.45mg .......1200.00mg
Iron, Fe...................................5.89mg .........15.00mg
Magnesium, Mg.............................98.96mg ........280.00mg
Phosphorus, P............................747.04mg .......1200.00mg
Sodium, Na................................68.62mg .............?mg
Potassium, K............................2620.02mg .............?mg
Zinc, Zn...................................4.26mg .........12.00mg
Iodide, I.................................30.00mcg .......150.00mcg no data:1,2,4
Selenium, Se.............................100.21mcg ........55.00mcg

Total sugar................................0.00g ..............?g no data:1,2,3,4
Glucose....................................0.00g ..............?g no data:1,2,3,4
Fructose...................................0.00g ..............?g no data:1,2,3,4
Sucrose....................................0.00g ..............?g no data:1,2,3,4
Lactose....................................0.00g ..............?g no data:1,2,3,4
Starch.....................................0.00g ..............?g no data:1,2,3,4

Fats
Fat, saturated............................24.01g ..............?g no data:3
Fat, monounsaturated......................85.59g ..............?g no data:3
Fat, polyunsaturated......................14.38g ..............?g no data:3

Omega-3 fatty acids
18:3 n-3, linolenic acid (LNA).............1.26g ..............?g
20:5 n-3, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA)......0.65g ..............?g
22:5 n-3, docosapentaenoic acid (DPA)......0.11g ..............?g
22:6 n-3, docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).......1.48g ..............?g

Cholesterol.............................1275.87mg .............?mg no data:3

I think this really serious because too less vitamin B1 can cause chronic diseases.

[RRM]

"Animal food contains all the necessary nutrients except for containing far too little (or no) vitamin C and beta-carotene."

Your selection:
... 100g (grams) of Tuna
6 units of Chicken egg yolk
....
This doesn't seem true to me according to this numbers.

Its only 100 grams of tuna and 6 egg yolks!
Thats never gonna get you enough energy...
Whatever diet you pick for comparison, you need to pick so much that it provides you with all the energy that you need.

Especially vitamin B1. If you don't get enough of this vitamin you can get the Wernicke's encephalopathy syndrome

Sure.
If you think you lack vitamin B1 in your diet, take a look at those foods that are high in B1:
http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-foodpernut.html
"Brazil nuts, mangosteen and durian contain most vitamin B1, but also dried plums, dried figs, tamarind and egg yolk contain lots of vitamin B1".
Suppose your example of 100 tuna plus egg yolks only.
to get enough energy (3000 kcal), you would have to eat:
100 gram tuna plus 50 egg yolks, which yields 2.56 mg B1.

Of course, you dont need that much, so that you can safely replace lots of yolks by other foods.

[Kasper]

I'm not sure if you read my second post.

But what I mean, it's not about myself it's about this diet.
I eat enough vitamin B1 according to the nutritional calculator.

I thought that the reasoning about this diet is:
1. Egg yolk
Gives almost all the vitamins and minerals you need
2. Fish
Gives vitamin B3 and omega 3
3. Fruit
Gives vitamin C and beta-carotene
4. Oil
Gives Fat

My point is you don't need only fruit for vitamin C and beta-carotene. You also need it for some B vitamins and E (if you don't eat olive oil).
Only the egg yolk and fish part of the diet gives not enough B vitamins.

So you should care about picking the right fruits in you diet. Otherwise you can get a diet very low in vitamin B1 for example. Like I showed in the diet with only apples as fruit source.

[RRM]

I thought that the reasoning about this diet is:
1. Egg yolk
Gives almost all the vitamins and minerals you need

No, it contains almost all the vitamins and minerals you need, and it will give you as much of it as much as it is part of your diet.
It contains almost everything and gives you as much as you eat it, depending on the quantity, naturally.

3. Fruit
Gives vitamin C and beta-carotene

Fruits also contain almost all nutrients, except for specific omega-3 and vitamin B12 and D.
http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-items2.html
And again, how much they will give you depends on the quantity.

My point is you don't need only fruit for vitamin C and beta-carotene.

Yes, of course you need fruits for all the nutrients they contain.
They are complementary to animal foods with regards to vitamin C and beta-carotene.

Only the egg yolk and fish part of the diet gives not enough B vitamins.

If egg yolk and fish is all what your diet is, they will supply you with all the vitamins B that you need.
If they are only part of your diet, they will supply you with only part of the B vitamins, naturally.

So you should care about picking the right fruits in you diet.

Of course.
Thats why we listed a number of most perfect fruit combinations.
http://www.freeacnebook.com/40-44.htm
Thats also why we created the nutrient calculator, so that you can submit your version of the diet to check what nutrients might be low.
http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-calcsimple.html

Like I showed in the diet with only apples as fruit source.

If you eat apples only, soon you will crave for other fruits too,
and your problem will be solved.

[Oscar]

Yeah, the confusion is about which nutrients are contained, and how much of them we need.

There are even other factors to consider, like: the RDAs being estimates rather than hard numbers, and being probably quite a bit higher than we need, and also the nutrient absorption rate.

[Kasper]

Thats why we listed a number of most perfect fruit combinations.

This is good, maybe it should also be on WaiDiet ? Because I've never noticed it. I don't have problems with overweight, acne or cellulite, so I never read that whole book.

Thats also why we created the nutrient calculator, so that you can submit your version of the diet to check what nutrients might be low.

Well I posted my diet two times here, and nobody (including myself) noticed that my B1, B3 vitamins were quite low:

Vitamin B1, Thiamin.............................1.39515mg ..........1.50mg
Vitamin B2, Riboflavin..........................2.02518mg ..........1.70mg
Vitamin B3, Niacin, Nicotinamide...............16.75190mg .........19.00mg
Vitamin B5, Pantothenic acid....................9.31577mg .............?mg
Vitamin B6, Pyridoxine..........................5.49951mg ..........2.00mg
Folate, total.................................474.33599mcg .......200.00mcg missing items:7
-Folate acid (Vitamin B9)......................48.00000mcg ............?mcg
-Folate, food.................................474.33599mcg ............?mcg missing items:7
-Folate, DFE..................................474.33599mcg_DFE ........?mcg_DFE missing items:7
Vitamin B-12....................................6.27756mcg .........2.00mcg

I don't think that I've too low B1 and B3 levels, especially because I drink 2 L of OJ a day now which is high in both vitamins.

But what that friend told me was that this diet is really quick quite low in vitamin B1. Because pork, bread, potatoes and rice are exluded.

I think he's quiet right, you've really quick a too low vitamin B1 level on this diet. Maybe you won't get so quick serious diseases like Wernicke's encephalopathy syndrome because those RDA numbers are quite high, but I think this diet has more risks in this disease than in an usual western diet.

If you eat apples only, soon you will crave for other fruits too,
and your problem will be solved.

Low vitamin B1 deficiency signs include a loss of appetite. So I don't think you get cravings for something.

[Iris]

I think this diet has more risks in this disease [Wernicke's encephalopathy syndrome] than in an usual western diet.

Besides arguments others already gave you, you also need more nutrients when you are on a "normal" diet. Nutrient recommendations are based on a "normal", cooked food diet.

If you eat apples only, soon you will crave for other fruits too, and your problem will be solved.

Low vitamin B1 deficiency signs include a loss of appetite. So I don't think you get cravings for something.

I think you'd already crave foods high in vit. B1 before the lack will cause loss of appetite. But even if loss of appetite would occur, it's not like you'd stop eating altogether, right? And the food you'd want to eat first are most likely foods high in vit. B1 (or whatever nutrient it is you are lacking)

[Oscar]

Okay Kasper, tell me: what are healthy vitamin B1 and B3 levels?

[Kasper]

I think this diet has more risks in this disease [Wernicke's encephalopathy syndrome] than in an usual western diet.

Besides arguments others already gave you, you also need more nutrients when you are on a "normal" diet. Nutrient recommendations are based on a "normal", cooked food diet.

I agree. The sentence before the sentence you quote me I write that those nutrient recommendations are quite high.

I think you'd already crave foods high in vit. B1 before the lack will cause loss of appetite. But even if loss of appetite would occur, it's not like you'd stop eating altogether, right? And the food you'd want to eat first are most likely foods high in vit. B1 (or whatever nutrient it is you are lacking)

Why do you think that ? Any sources with vitamin B1 cases ?
Maybe in some cases this is true, but I don't think this will always do the trick.

Okay Kasper, tell me: what are healthy vitamin B1 and B3 levels?

I don't know, I think that everything above the nutrient recommendations should be healthy because these vitamins are water soluble..
What do you think ?

[RRM]

Well I posted my diet two times here, and nobody (including myself) noticed that my B1, B3 vitamins were quite low:

Because they are not "quite low".
The ones on the right are the recommended intakes...

what that friend told me was that this diet is really quick quite low in vitamin B1. Because pork, bread, potatoes and rice are exluded.

vitamin B1 in mcg per 100 g.

1000 Brazil nuts
900 pork
500 mangosteen
450 durian
390 hazelnut
340 walnut
300 tamarind
290 egg yolk
280 macadamia nut
250 whole meal bread
170 salmon
160 tuna
150 plums, dried
120 figs, dried
120 raisins
102 rice, brown, cooked
100 apple, dried
100 potato, cooked
95 orange juice
86 white bread
85 kumquat
80 avocado
80 pineapple
80 tree tomato
79 orange
61 coconut
60 mandarins
60 muskmelon
44 banana
20 rice, polished, cooked

I think he's quiet right, you've really quick a too low vitamin B1 level on this diet.

Based on what data?

If you eat apples only, soon you will crave for other fruits too,
and your problem will be solved.

Low vitamin B1 deficiency signs include a loss of appetite. So I don't think you get cravings for something.

It takes many, many days of eating apples only to get a low vitamin B1 level;
(before the symptoms kick in) many days of cravings for other foods,
so that its very unlikely that you keep eating apples only,
and therefore very likely that you never make it to that low vitamin B1 level.
Thats because your body can store about 25 to 30 mg of vitamin B1. (good for at least a month)

I think that everything above the nutrient recommendations should be healthy because these vitamins are water soluble

Always?
Also in the case of calcium? (dissolves in water)
Selenium?

[Iris]

I agree. The sentence before the sentence you quote me I write that those nutrient recommendations are quite high.

Yes, but that is not what I mean. Besides the fact recommendations are quite high (for people on a normal diet), you also need less nutr. on Wai (because of the lack of anti-nutrients/toxins). And, as Oscar stated, absorption rates increase when your intake of a certain nutrient is low.

I think you'd already crave foods high in vit. B1 before the lack will cause loss of appetite. But even if loss of appetite would occur, it's not like you'd stop eating altogether, right? And the food you'd want to eat first are most likely foods high in vit. B1 (or whatever nutrient it is you are lacking)

Why do you think that ? Any sources with vitamin B1 cases ?
Maybe in some cases this is true, but I don't think this will always do the trick.

It's pure logic. Your body wants to be healthy. To be so, it needs nutrients. Food provides this. So naturally you'll crave those foods that you need. Only if you systematically ignore what your body is telling you, nutrient deficiency is going to be a problem. This is (a.o.) why we always advocate to listen to your body carefully.

Ofcourse it is possible to create a shortage of certain nutrients on Wai (if you ignore all warning signals that is). This can be done at any diet (and many people have). And even when you'd eat "normal", you'll crave things that are rich in the nutrients you need. The difference with Wai is there are no addictive substances etc to misguide and sedate you. So I think it's easier to give the body exactly what it needs.
Sure there are certain things that are rich in a certain nutrient you can't eat on Wai, but that doesn't change in any way the body's capability to make sure you consume the right foods (which provide all nutrients you need). Wai just narrows the spectrum your body can choose from.