AGEs / ALEs

[Aytundra]

In that view, carbs are bad.

A little lost reading this sentence.
Is it: A or B?
A) In that view (RRM thinks that JeffC thinks), carbs are bad.
B) In that view (RRM thinks), carbs are bad.
---
Oops I time travelled again.

[RRM]

let's put it in perspective. The nutrition data on 1 boiled potato (118 calories) says it has 0.9 g of pure reducing sugars (glucose + fructose).
1 cup of orange juice (112 calories) has 12.2 g of pure glucose + fructose. Plus 8.7 g of sucrose.

Yes, lets put it in perspective.
If this is not about the effect of cooking on reducing sugars (as Dime pointed out), you think it is about fructose (and glucose) ingestion per se.
Glucose is a reducing sugar.
95% of available carbs in potatoes is starch.
After eating the potato, the starch is split into glucose molecules. ('pure reducing sugars')
1 medium sized boiled potato contains 33.42g. carbs.

95% of that (31.7 g.) is starch > glucose
0.5 g is sucrose > glucose + fructose
0.6 g is glucose
0.5 g is fructose

So, 1 boiled potato ultimately delivers 33 grams of reducing sugars.
In that view, carbs are bad.
Unfortunately, in that view, amino acids (AGEs/ALEs) and fats (lipoxidation, ALEs) are bad too.

I would rather abstain from alcohol and fructose because they are unnecessary and damaging.

If fructose is 'damaging', so are starch, glucose, protein and fatty acids.
Actually, breathing is damaging too.
Do you have any idea what oxygen radicals can do?

I am not seeing anywhere an actual study with numbers that says, "yes, we found high levels of [some other AGE] in boiled potatoes."

You also do not see any study reporting low levels.
You know why?
They didnt investigate that yet.
And there are thousands of AGEs.
We do not know the levels, but we do know that cooking stimulates their formation...

[RRM]

In that view, carbs are bad.

A little lost reading this sentence.
Is it: A or B?
A) In that view (RRM thinks that JeffC thinks), carbs are bad.
B) In that view (RRM thinks), carbs are bad.

If you think ingesting fructose is bad regarding endogenous AGE formation,
then you also think that ingesting glucose is bad regarding endogenous AGE formation.
And for the same reason ingesting starch is bad, as that yields glucose endogenously, which is a precursor for AGEs, endogenously.
And also amino acids (protein), as they are precursors for both AGEs and ALEs, endogenously.
And fatty acids, as they are subject to lipoxidation and precurors for ALEs, endogenously.
And oxygen, which yields oxygen radicals endogenously.

[Aytundra]

In that view, carbs are bad.

A little lost reading this sentence.
Is it: A or B?
A) In that view (RRM thinks that JeffC thinks), carbs are bad.
B) In that view (RRM thinks), carbs are bad.

If you think ingesting fructose is bad regarding endogenous AGE formation,

I don't think ingesting fructose is bad.
Maybe JeffC does.

then you also think that ingesting glucose is bad regarding endogenous AGE formation.
And for the same reason ingesting starch is bad, as that yields glucose endogenously, which is a precursor for AGEs, endogenously.
And also amino acids (protein), as they are precursors for both AGEs and ALEs, endogenously.
And fatty acids, as they are subject to lipoxidation and precurors for ALEs, Maybe leftover unprocessed fructose = Some free endogenous fructose = High potential to be endogenous AGEs, if free fructoseendogenously.
And oxygen, which yields oxygen radicals endogenously.

Aytundra Thinks ---> High fructose = High fructose on plate = High fructose in mouth = High fructose in gut = High fructose in blood stream = Maybe leftover unprocessed fructose = Some free endogenous fructose = High potential to be endogenous AGEs, if free fructose meets with amino acid under the right temperatures and maybe create endogenous AGEs.

Aytundra Thinks ---> High reducing sugars = High reducing sugars on plate = High reducing sugars in mouth = High reducing sugars in gut = High reducing sugars in blood stream = Maybe leftover unprocessed reducing sugars = Some free endogenous reducing sugars = High potential to be endogenous AGEs, if free reducing sugars meets with amino acid under the right temperatures and maybe create endogenous AGEs.

Read carefully. (I should have used --> instead of "=" signs for that quote up there, but hey I was trying to show one "=" sign is jumping to conclusions.)
I purposedly used words like: "Some", "Maybe", and "potential", to show the process of sugars becoming precursors, is not that simple of a process.

I don't think endogenous fructose is bad.
I don't think endogenous glucose is bad.
I don't think endogenous reducing sugars are bad.
I don't think endogenous amino acids, or lipids are bad.
They are only bad when they are in so close of a proximity to forming AGEs.
Hence, imo fruits are safe (yes, JeffC I think "fresh"fruits (not dried) are safe.)
Hence, imo potatoes are safe (yes, RRM I think boiled potatoes with AGE precursors are safe.)
Because, it will be silly not to eat fructose, glucose, reducing sugars from starch, amino acids and lipids.
If you guys want me to knock out fruit or potatoes from my menu, you will have to show me that an AGE precursor is not safe.

[RRM]

Define "safe"...

Ageing is the result of the contest between biology (cleaning up the bad substances) and chemistry (the bad stufff formed as a result of chemical reactions)
As the resultof breathing, oxygen enters our body and some oxygen radicals originate endogenously.
As the result of eating / drinking food, nutrients enter our body and as a result some AGEs / ALEs are formed endogenously.

Cooking creates exponentially more AGEs/ALEs than the the AGEs/ALEs that may be formed endogenously.
That is because high temperatures enforce chemical interactions that would not occur at lower temperatures.
Hence the origination of HCAs, acrylamide etc only at specific high temperatures.

For example:
If the interaction between lysine and glucose may yield one Maillard intermediate,
this may yield various end-products as the result of further interactions with other compounds.
But cooking may cause lysine and glucose to interact at virtually each site of each molecule, which may yield many dozens of Maillard intermediates,
which number is further multiplied by subsequent interactions with other molecules.

Everything that we eat, drink and breath may cause collateral damage.
Luckily, our body is adapted to preventing and repairing that damage.
Cooking creates exponentially more potentially harmful molecules, which will cause more damage.

[Aytundra]

Cooking creates exponentially more AGEs/ALEs than the the AGEs/ALEs that may be formed endogenously.

What about the thousands of AGEs/ALEs not measured yet? in slow cooking meats?

Define "safe"...

Define why is that (slow cooking of meats) safe.

[RRM]

Cooking creates exponentially more AGEs/ALEs than the the AGEs/ALEs that may be formed endogenously.

What about the thousands of AGEs/ALEs not measured yet? in slow cooking meats?

That will be exponentially less than thousands, because with slow cooking, the maximum temperature is 60, 70 or 80°C.
There will be much more than the number formed endogenously though.
The higher the temperature, the more AGEs/ALEs will be formed.

Define "safe"...

Define why is that (slow cooking of meats) safe.

Everything is relative.
Its safer than normal cooking and less safe than raw.

[JeffC]

I am not seeing anywhere an actual study with numbers that says, "yes, we found high levels of [some other AGE] in boiled potatoes."

They didnt investigate that yet.
We do not know the levels, but we do know that cooking stimulates their formation...

I accept 'higher temperatures means more AGEs/ALEs' as a statement that is generally true.
In the same way that 'taller people earn more money' is generally true.

But say that we have two particular men, Mr. Tate (1.7 m tall) and Mr. Fruct (1.9 m tall).
I ask RRM, which man do you think earns more money?
RRM would reply, "We know that taller men earn more, therefore Mr. Fruct earns more."
I reply, "Well, I looked at their tax forms. Mr. Tate actually earns a little more."
RRM refuses to concede. "Impossible. Tall men earn more! You're looking at only one source of income. There are many possibilities."
I say, "All of the available data says that Mr. Tate earns more."
RRM explains, "Then Mr. Fruct certainly makes unreported money under the table, because tall men earn more."
Stunned, I reply, "Certainly!? And your evidence for this bold accusation is...?"
RRM confidently finishes, "I don't need any. Tall men earn more."
I conclude, "So the world's tallest man is the world's richest man?"
.............................

If fructose is 'damaging', so are starch, glucose, protein and fatty acids. Actually, breathing is damaging too.

This straw man isn't the point of what I said. The point is that fructose is much more damaging.
"The rate and extent of protein-bound fluorescence generation upon fructation was about 10 times that upon glucation." (Suarez)
"Almost all of the loss of lysine in the fructose-modified BSA was attributed to the formation of CML, with the yield of CML being up to 17-fold higher than glucose-modified BSA" (Hinton)

1 boiled potato (118 cal)
26.9 g glucose x 1 = 26.9
0.5 g fructose x 17 = 8.5
35.4

1 cup OJ (112 cal)
16.1 g glucose x 1 = 16.1
10.7 g fructose x 17 = 181.9
198

So the OJ forms 5.6x more CML. 'Exponential.'

[RRM]

I am not seeing anywhere an actual study with numbers that says, "yes, we found high levels of [some other AGE] in boiled potatoes."

They didnt investigate that yet.
We do not know the levels, but we do know that cooking stimulates their formation...

I accept 'higher temperatures means more AGEs/ALEs' as a statement that is generally true.

Not just generally.
Its always true.
A boiled potato will contain more AGEs than a raw potato.
A cooked fruit will contain more than raw fruit.
Any heated meat will contain more than the raw form.
Its true for any food.
The higher the temp, the more AGEs.

The point is that fructose is much more damaging.

In vitro, yes.
Yes, there are different levels of reactivity, and fructose is sitting on top, regarding AGEs that have fructose as their precursor, such as CML.
Equally so, some amino acids (and creatine) are way more potent as precursors than others, regarding specific AGEs.
But you keep on ignoring that.
You have a tunnel vision on fructose.

So the OJ forms 5.6x more CML. 'Exponential.'

You cannot conclude that.
Your calculation is not factual.
It is a presumption.
In practise, there will be many factors at play.
Please search for a study that actually compares the actual formation of endogenous CML from the consumption of OJ/fruit to that of eating boiled potatoes.
Or one that compares the actual consumption of glucose vs fructose in the formation of endogenous CML.
Or a study that compares endogenous CMLlevels of fruit eaters vs non-fruit eaters.
You may find significant, but certainly not exponential differences in CML (and fluorescent AGE values).

[Kasper]

I accept 'higher temperatures means more AGEs/ALEs' as a statement that is generally true.

Not just generally.
Its always true.
A boiled potato will contain more AGEs than a raw potato.
A cooked fruit will contain more than raw fruit.
Any heated meat will contain more than the raw form.
Its true for any food.
The higher the temp, the more AGEs.

I agree with you on most points in this discussion RRM, but here you are either completely misreading JeffC post (which I doubt) or you are sabotaging the discussion. Which is sad, because it hides the reader from the interesting point, and it may frustrate JeffC. I would get frustrated, if I was in JeffC position.

It is clear (from the context) that JeffC means that if you compare some cooked food with some raw food, then that doesn't mean that the raw food have less AGE than the cooked food. For example, compare boiled potatoes with raw beef. The evidence we got suggest that this may be very well the case that raw beef actually does contain more AGE then boiled potatoes. But some trivial (uninteresting) example that support this statement is to compare boiled sugar water with any raw meat. This cooked "food" contains no AGE, so the point that JeffC was trying to make holds.

But back to the intereseting example, if we would compare AGE content in potatoes and raw beef. As I said, the evidence suggest that raw beef may contain much more AGE than boiled potatoes. Not even mentioning slow cooked beef. Do you agree with this ? Or do you seriously think that if we would measure the complete pallette of AGE's and compare raw beef with boiled potatoes, than then the picture would be completely different ?

From my noobish perspective, I would say that it is not very suprising that such a low amount of AGE is measured in boiled potatoes, given the low protein content, and the high anti-oxidant content of potatoes.

[RRM]

... or you are sabotaging the discussion. Which is sad

That was not my intention, but the 'tall man metaphore' was not helpful imho, as this is not an one-aspect issue (CML / height)
The point is that you cannot equate all AGEs. (=height)
You cannot compare AGEs already formed endogenously to AGEs only formed at >100°C.

the evidence suggest that raw beef may contain much more AGE than boiled potatoes.

No, it does not, at all.
AGE levels have not been investigated.
CML was measured.
This is an AGE that may also form in your body, naturally, at levels below 40°C.

When you cook foods, all kinds of other groups of AGEs originate.
The higher the temperature involved, the more harmful compounds may get formed.
You cannot let CML represent AGEs.
That is absurd.
You cannot let endogenously formed AGEs represent all other types of groups, including cancerous AGEs.

Intake of vegetables and fruit with predominance of fructose is significantly higher in vegetarians.
Therefore, vegetarians have a significantly higher CML content in plasma and fluorescent AGE values.Krajcovicová-Kudlácková M et al
Yet, the consumption of veggies and fruits is known to be associated with better health.
So, higher levels of fluorescent AGEs are associated with BETTER health.
How is that possible?
Because they only represent a group of AGEs that are also formed endogenously; the least harmful ones.

do you seriously think that if we would measure the complete pallette of AGE's and compare raw beef with boiled potatoes, than then the picture would be completely different ?

ABSOLUTELY.
In raw beef, you will find none of the groups of AGEs that are formed only at temperatures above 100°C
You will find none of the AGEs only formed over 90°C.
You will find none of the AGEs only formed over 80°C
You will find none of the AGEs only formed over 70°C.
You will find none of the AGEs only formed over 60°C
You will find none of the AGEs only formed over 50°C.
You will find none of the AGEs only formed over 40°C

From my noobish perspective, I would say that it is not very suprising that such a low amount of AGE is measured in boiled potatoes,

Sure, the level of AGEs only formed at high temperatures will be far lower in boiled potatoes than in boiled beef.
But: Potatoes DO contain some protein,
and they DO contain reducing sugars, so that due to boiling they WILL contain some AGEs only formed at higher temperatures,
unlike raw beef.

A question for you.
What is more harmful: 10 grams of CML, or 1 gram of PhIP daily?

[JeffC]

the 'tall man metaphor' was not helpful imho, as this is not an one-aspect issue (CML / height)
The point is that you cannot equate all AGEs. (=height)

In the analogy,
more money = less AGEs
taller height = lower temperature

Generalizing does not get you closer to the truth.
AGE levels have not been investigated.
AGEs that have fructose as their precursor, such as CML.
You cannot let CML represent AGEs.

Your defense has been that researchers are 'picking on' fructose by using CML as a general indicator of AGE content. The researchers disagree.

"These results suggest that lipid peroxidation, as well as glycoxidation, may be an important source of CML in tissue proteins in vivo and that CML may be a general marker of oxidative stress and long term damage to protein in aging, atherosclerosis, and diabetes." Min-Xin Fu

How else could raw meats and fats have high levels of CML when they lack fructose?

Exogenous CML levels:
Boiled potato: 17 kU CML (low fructose, medium temp, low CML)
Baked apple: 45 kU CML (high fructose, high temp, low CML)
Raw trout: 705 kU CML (no fructose, low temp, high CML)

Saying "I know the truth, they just haven't investigated it yet" (regarding hidden income/'other AGEs') turns Wai into a diet of religion rather than science. We just have to 'have faith' that some other AGEs exist that make slightly warmer foods less healthy than our sacred raw fruits. I've also heard that Jesus is the truth. Everything will be forever wonderful if I just have faith in His authority... I'm not convinced.

Please search for a study that compares endogenous CML levels of fruit eaters vs non-fruit eaters.
Krajcovicová-Kudlácková M et al
Please search for a study that compares the actual consumption of glucose vs fructose in the formation of endogenous CML.
Levi

Already discussed.

Yet, the consumption of veggies and fruits is known to be associated with better health.
So, higher levels of fluorescent AGEs are associated with BETTER health.

The first statement is just assuming your own position. I have been arguing that fruits are not ideal.

The second statement... that's where it's appropriate to use the term 'absurd.' I'm stunned that you would actually write that.
"AGE fluorescence was significantly higher in chronic alcoholic patients than in healthy subjects." Kalousová
Shall I switch from boiled potatoes to alcohol?

[Kasper]

Please search for a study that compares the actual consumption of glucose vs fructose in the formation of endogenous CML.
Levi

Would love to see a study done in humans in this context. As far as I know, rats are not evolved on fruits, and may react very differently on fructose.

[Aytundra]

Where are the Sources or Citations?

Potatoes have a really low amount after boiling (17 kU/100g), whereas french fries are loaded with 1000+ kU/100g.
For reference, raw beef has 707 kU/100g.

Was it a CML, PhIP, or other AGEs?

Exogenous CML levels:
Boiled potato: 17 kU CML (low fructose, medium temp, low CML)
Baked apple: 45 kU CML (high fructose, high temp, low CML)
Raw trout: 705 kU CML (no fructose, low temp, high CML)

Did they specify what units (g,°C) is considered as: "no", "low", "medium", or "high" ?

[RRM]

Yet, the consumption of veggies and fruits is known to be associated with better health.

The first statement is just assuming your own position.

You are on very slippery ice now...
Are you claiming that there is no overwhelming evidence that fruit and vegetable consumption is statistically associated with better health?