Vitamin B1 / thiamine

[RRM]

First you claimed that kiwis and bananas will not supply you with sufficient B1.
That appeared not to be the case.
In order to lower the B1 contents anyway, you now found the need to add a lot of oil.
But trying to find a low B1 version of this diet doesnt make sense.

On this diet we do it the other way around:
You submit a diet that you fancy, and you submit that diet to the nutrient calculator,
to check if it gives you enough of all nutrients.
When it doesnt, you add a different food.

for a person who needs between 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2, I would recommend to add some vitamin B1 rich fruit such as orange juice and pineapple.

You may, but you can also do it differently.
For a 3000 kcal diet to get a fat/carb 1:2 ratio, you could eat:
30 grams of oil, 6 egg yolks, a handful of Brazil nuts (35 gram), 2 avocadoes, 8 kiwis and 14 bananas.

[Kasper]

First you claimed that kiwis and bananas will not supply you with sufficient B1.
That appeared not to be the case.
In order to lower the B1 contents anyway, you now found the need to add a lot of oil.

Are you kidding me ?
Firstly I claimed at Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:33 pm that a diet with kiwi/banana/oil/egg yolk gives you a vitamin B1 value lower than the RDA.
Remember ?

[Item 1] 6units of Chicken egg yolk (Gallus domesticus), raw, [1],
[Item 2] 100g (grams) of Olive oil (Olea europea), [1],a
[Item 3] 2000g (grams) of Banana (Musa X paradisiaca), [1].
Energy..................................3080.56kcal .....2900.00kcal
Vitamin B1, Thiamin........................1.16mg ..........1.50mg

with kiwi: 1.03mg vitamin B1

Than you claimed at Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:50 pm that a kiwi/banana/egg yolks diet gives you more than enough vitamin B1.
In order to do this you put forward a very uncommon diet without any oil.

A 20 yr old man may need about 3000 kcal.
For this he would have to consume 6 egg yolks, 20 bananas and 10 kiwis.
This would yield 1570 mcg B1, which is more than enough.

In order to lower the B1 contents anyway, you now found the need to add a lot of oil.

No, what I was doing in my last post was repeating myself.
I thought well RRM puts forward a diet that which you almost can't call a Wai diet, because:

The Wai diet basically consist of: fruits (raw, can also be juiced or (sun)dried), olive oil, raw egg yolk and raw fish.

Let's put forward the diet I post at 6th of july, but than perfectly following the guidelines of Wai:
- fruit, olive oil and egg yolk or fish (in the context of vitamin B1, egg yolk and fish give similar results)
- sugar/fat 2:1 ratio.

You may, but you can also do it differently.
For a 3000 kcal diet to get a fat/carb 1:2 ratio, you could eat:
30 grams of oil, 6 egg yolks, a handful of Brazil nuts (35 gram), 2 avocadoes, 8 kiwis and 14 bananas.

Did I mention avocadoes or nuts?

I was talking about a diet with egg yolk/olive oil and a combination of those fruits:
kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, raisin, dates, strawberry, banana

Of course their are 3000 kcal wai diets with a fat/carb 1:2 ratio possible which give you enough vitamin B1. Adding nuts and avocados is one way, another way is as I mentioned adding orange juice/pineapple.

But again, the point was that I had no ground to advice vitamin B1 rich food in the diet, because as you said even with a kiwi/banana/egg yolk diet you get enough vitamin B1.

I hope you are now convinced that I have ground to advice vitamin B1 rich food, as even yourself advice vitamin B1 high food as avocados and brazil nuts to a kiwi/banana diet.

[RRM]

I hope you are now convinced that I have ground to advice vitamin B1 rich food.

There is no reason whatsoever to advice vitamin B1 rich food; your fixation on B1 is totally without ground.
Even the selected kiwi/banana/egg yolks diet is not low in B1.
This diet is not low in B1, unless you try it to be low in B1, by selecting only specific fruits as well as adding lots of oil.
The same goes for other vitamins, and minerals.
You can make this (and any other) diet low in almost any nutrient, if you try hard enough.
It actually may be easier to make this diet low in other nutrients, than it is to make it low in B1.

My point is that this is not how people start this diet.
We dont try to minimize the intake of a specific vitamin or mineral.
No, we select a few fruits and some animal food, and then submit this version of the diet to the nutrient calculator.
If that version appears to be low in X, we add in a food that is rich in X.
I hope you now understand.

[Kasper]

My point is that this is not how people start this diet.
We dont try to minimize the intake of a specific vitamin or mineral.
No, we select a few fruits and some animal food, and then submit this version of the diet to the nutrient calculator.
If that version appears to be low in X, we add in a food that is rich in X.
I hope you now understand.

I understand that the nutrient calculator is a great tool for people to be sure they ingest the nutrients they need.
Don't worry I agree about that. In fact, I use it a quiet a lot as you see.

But on WaiDiet, people aren't really pushed to use this tool, are they?
The only thing I could find about vitamins and minerals on WaiDiet is:
"The basic principle of the Wai Diet is to give the body what it needs, and to avoid that which is harmful to it. The diet will provide us with all the necessary macronutrients (carbohydrates, fats, protein) and micronutrients (vitamins, minerals and trace elements) we need."

So supposing somebody doesn't visit this forum, I couldn't find any sentence on WaiDiet that tells people why it's important to use the nutrient calculator.
Beside this, it gives quite some work to use it, and why would he use it anyway?
As this diet will provide him with all the necessary macronutrients and micronutrient he need ?

This diet is not low in B1, unless you try it to be low in B1, by selecting only specific fruits as well as adding lots of oil.

So you assume that this is impossible that a person:
1. Follows the guideline of wai on fat/carb ratio --> 1:2
2. Isn't able to get/doesn't like nuts and avocado, or by any other reason has only oil as vegetable fat source.
3. Chooses a combination of vitamin B1 low fruits, like: kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, raisin, dates, strawberry, banana
4. Consumes less than 3000 kcal. (Or if you think 1,0 mg vitamin B1 a day is enough, less than 2000 kcal if you want).

unless he/she tries to get a diet very low in vitamin B1 ???
Are you serious ?

About point one: I think many people follow a 1:2 fat/carb ratio, you have to admit that.
About point two: For myself, I can't get macadamia's/brazil nuts here, I don't like avocado and I only eat sometimes some almonds, but most of the time I'm too lazy for it. And I think I'm not the only one who uses oil as only vegetable fat source.
About point three: Is it really so strange that you build your diet on an a combination of those fruits ??

If tomorrow somebody post such an diet on this forum. What would you say ?
"This is impossible! You must have tried to get a diet such low in vitamin B1!"

Or, would you recommend him/her to add some foods high in vitamin B1, like I would do (and indirectly already have done)?

[Oscar]

You're correct, there's no reference to the calculator in the main article (I did put a paragraph about it in the "In Short" one). I'll add it.

I have to say I find the discussion kinda moot, as long as we do not know what the absolute minimum amount of B1 per day is. The only thing we have to compare is the arbitrary RDA number. While it is a useful tool, it isn't something to fanatically adhere to.

[RRM]

But on WaiDiet, people aren't really pushed to use this tool, are they?

Most people come here via the Acne Sample Diet or the freeacnebook.com
In the sample diet we tell people to check any version in the calculator.
In the book (before we had the calculator) we advice a number of perfect fruit combinations,
as i already told you before.
Also people coming in via the forum will get picture, i think, at least after some time,
or after a very long discussion with lots of repetitions.

Beside this, it gives quite some work to use it, and why would he use it anyway?

Because that is what we advice.
Of course, people can ignore our advice.

So you assume that this is impossible that a person:...
unless he/she tries to get a diet very low in vitamin B1 ???

On any diet you can get a low B1 version.
Or low in some other vitamin / mineral.

Is it really so strange that you build your diet on an a combination of those fruits ??

First of all, you need to miss all the advice that we give.
Then you need to make a number of specific choices to reach that low B1 version.
Which is what you do on any diet....

If tomorrow somebody post such an diet on this forum. What would you say ?

What we always say when someone reports a diet low in X or Y:
Add a nutrient that is rich in X or Y....
That is what the calculator is for.

[Kasper]

Oh, I'm getting really tired about this discussion, we really can't agree about anything can we ?
I understand we disagree about certain things, like adding more vitamin B1 than the RDA, but I really can't believe that we don't agree about things like this:

But on WaiDiet, people aren't really pushed to use this tool, are they?

Why don't you just say like Oscar:

You're correct, there's no reference to the calculator in the main article (I did put a paragraph about it in the "In Short" one). I'll add it.

@Oscar, By the way, thanks for the effort. I think this should fit in the main article.

Most people come here via the Acne Sample Diet or the freeacnebook.com
In the sample diet we tell people to check any version in the calculator.
In the book (before we had the calculator) we advice a number of perfect fruit combinations,
as i already told you before.
Also people coming in via the forum will get picture, i think, at least after some time,
or after a very long discussion with lots of repetitions.

There are people who are coming from the Acne Sample Diet or the freeacnebook.com. I agree about this.
And this people are advised to use either the calculator or a number of perfect fruit combinations. I agree.
Also for people coming in via the forum are advised to use nutrient calculator. I agree.

But still, there are people who find this diet through WaiDiet. If people are intrested in this diet I always give them http://www.waiworld.com
But I've seen not one of them on this forum, and I don't think they will read the acne articles because they don't suffer from acne.
So I suppose we can assume that there are people who will start this diet only through information from WaiDiet. Do we agree?

Beside this, it gives quite some work to use it, and why would he use it anyway?

Because that is what we advice.
Of course, people can ignore our advice.

You advice people to use it on the forum, you advice people to use on the Acne Sample Diet and you advise people to use something similar on freeacnebook.com. I agree about this. And I agree, people can ignore this advice.

But you don't (yet) really push people who only visit WaiDiet to use the nutrient calculator. For them it's not about ignoring, but about not being told.

If tomorrow somebody post such an diet on this forum. What would you say ?

What we always say when someone reports a diet low in X or Y:
Add a nutrient that is rich in X or Y....
That is what the calculator is for.

Well, I agree with this. But than, I don't understand why you disagree with this:

So for a person who needs between 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2, I would recommend to add some vitamin B1 rich food such as orange juice and pineapple.

If a person adds only fruits low in vitamin B1 to such a diet than she get a diet low in vitamin B1 (between 45%-66% RDA or lower). So I recommend some vitamin B1 rich food.

I report a diet (well actually a whole range of diets) low in vitamin B1. If someone reports a diet low in X or Y:
Than I recommend to replace X {kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, raisin, dates, strawberry, banana, or foods which give you less vitamin B1}
for Y {orange juice, pineapple, avocadoes, brazil nuts, or others foods rich in vitamin B1}. Add in a food that is rich in X or Y

There is no reason whatsoever to advice vitamin B1 rich food

If tomorrow somebody post such an diet on this forum. What would you say ?

What we always say when someone reports a diet low in X or Y:
Add a nutrient that is rich in X or Y....
That is what the calculator is for.

I agree with quote two, but disagree with quote one, I believe those quotes conflict with each other, because:
Quote one says: There is no reason whatsoever to advice vitamin B1 rich food.
Quote two says: I would advice to such an diet (low in vitamin B1) to add in a food rich in vitamin B1.

[RRM]

Oh, I'm getting really tired about this discussion, we really can't agree about anything can we ?

Me too, so we agree here.

But on WaiDiet, people aren't really pushed to use this tool, are they?

I really can't believe that we don't agree about things like this:
Why don't you just say like Oscar:.....

Because my interpretation of your question differed from his:
Maybe he thought that you were referring to the section www.waidiet.com only,
whereas i understood that it was about the total Wai Diet.
Hence my response.

But still, there are people who find this diet through WaiDiet.

I guess you are referring to waidiet.com.
Yes, i agree; we could push the calculator there as well, but maybe on the nutrients page.
There are people who may enter through all kinds of pages,
but i think pushing the calculator should be limited (to the nutrients section, sample diet, and book)

But you don't (yet) really push people who only visit WaiDiet to use the nutrient calculator. For them it's not about ignoring, but about not being told.

Not entirely true, as the nutrient calculator has always been in the nutrients section of waidiet.com

I don't understand why you disagree with this:
"So for a person who needs between 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2, I would recommend to add some vitamin B1 rich food such as orange juice and pineapple.

Because vitamin B1 is just one of many vitamins.
All nutrients need to be represented adequately.
There is no need whatsoever to give this advice regarding B1, and not for others (except for some, such as C).
You need sufficient of ALL nutrients, not just B1.
A 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2 version does not need to be low in B1 at all.
Maybe its low in B2, or zinc or iron, and not in B1, so why then push B1???

I agree with quote two, but disagree with quote one, I believe those quotes conflict with each other, because:
Quote one says: There is no reason whatsoever to advice vitamin B1 rich food.
Quote two says: I would advice to such an diet (low in vitamin B1) to add in a food rich in vitamin B1.

Quote one is not about a low B1 diet, but about the Wai Diet in general.
Quote two is about a low B1 version of this diet.
ONLY if your version of the diet comes out of the calculator as low in B1,
THEN i would advice to add a high B1 food.
Do you understand this essential difference?

[Kasper]

It's good to hear that part of the disagreements came from miscommunication.
I was referring to http://www.waidiet.com/. Sorry for the confusion.

I don't understand why you disagree with this:
"So for a person who needs between 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2, I would recommend to add some vitamin B1 rich food such as orange juice and pineapple.

Because vitamin B1 is just one of many vitamins.
All nutrients need to be represented adequately.
There is no need whatsoever to give this advice regarding B1, and not for others (except for some, such as C).
You need sufficient of ALL nutrients, not just B1.
A 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2 version does not need to be low in B1 at all.
Maybe its low in B2, or zinc or iron, and not in B1, so why then push B1???

Well I actually meant to say:
"So for a person who follow such a diet who needs between 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2, I would recommend to add some vitamin B1 rich food such as orange juice and pineapple. "

With such a diet I mean a diet I was talking about in that post, which was a diet that consist of:
Egg yolk(or fish), oil and a combination of those fruits: kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, raisin, dates, strawberry, banana or other fruits low in vitamin B1.

Egg yolk/fish, oil, fruit is the most basic wai diet.
Because fruit is the only variable factor, regarding vitamin B1, I wanted to show with which fruits vitamin B1 level is low on a basic Wai diet with 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2.
I also wanted to show that the this diet can be low, because which posts like this two you pretend that it's almost impossible to choose a wai diet which is low in vitamin B1.

I have shown you that even when you eat kiwis, bananas and egg yolks only,
you still ingest all the B1 that you need, so that you certainly dont need extra B1.

This diet is not low in B1, unless you try it to be low in B1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with quote two, but disagree with quote one, I believe those quotes conflict with each other, because:
Quote one says: There is no reason whatsoever to advice vitamin B1 rich food.
Quote two says: I would advice to such an diet (low in vitamin B1) to add in a food rich in vitamin B1.

Quote one is not about a low B1 diet, but about the Wai Diet in general.

I didn't recommend high B1 fruit in general in this thread. Quote one was an reaction at this post:

I was talking about a diet with egg yolk/olive oil and a combination of those fruits:
kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, raisin, dates, strawberry, banana
Of course their are 3000 kcal wai diets with a fat/carb 1:2 ratio possible which give you enough vitamin B1. Adding nuts and avocados is one way, another way is as I mentioned adding orange juice/pineapple.
....
I hope you are now convinced that I have ground to advice vitamin B1 rich food (in those cases)

In this post I was talking about a specific range of diets low in vitamin B1.

Quote two is about a low B1 version of this diet.
ONLY if your version of the diet comes out of the calculator as low in B1,
THEN i would advice to add a high B1 food.
Do you understand this essential difference?

I do understand this.
But in this thread I didn't recommend to add high B1 food in general, but only to specific version of the diet.
You splitted off the thread where I recommend high B1 food in general.
But I respect that you don't recommend high B1 food in general. I do understand that.

[RRM]

I don't understand why you disagree with this:
"So for a person who needs between 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2, I would recommend to add some vitamin B1 rich food such as orange juice and pineapple.

Because vitamin B1 is just one of many vitamins.
All nutrients need to be represented adequately.
There is no need whatsoever to give this advice regarding B1, and not for others (except for some, such as C).
You need sufficient of ALL nutrients, not just B1.
A 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2 version does not need to be low in B1 at all.
Maybe its low in B2, or zinc or iron, and not in B1, so why then push B1???

Well I actually meant to say:
"So for a person who follow such a diet who needs between 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2, I would recommend to add some vitamin B1 rich food such as orange juice and pineapple. "

With such a diet I mean a diet I was talking about in that post, which was a diet that consist of:
Egg yolk(or fish), oil and a combination of those fruits: kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, raisin, dates, strawberry, banana or other fruits low in vitamin B1.

You might want to change your question into this:
"Would you agree with this:
So for a person whose version of the diet is low in B1, I would recommend to add some vitamin B1 rich food".
And yes, then my answer would be: "I agree".
Because even "such a diet" (even though its very specific) does not need to be low in B1.
Check out the nutrient calculator for this entry (as there are many more for "such a diet"):

12 egg yolks
100 ml olive oil
12 bananas
4 apricots
(In total 1.24 mg B1, in case you want to know right away)

1) I have shown you that even when you eat kiwis, bananas and egg yolks only,
you still ingest all the B1 that you need, so that you certainly dont need extra B1.
....
2)This diet is not low in B1, unless you try it to be low in B1

...posts like this two you pretend that it's almost impossible to choose a wai diet which is low in vitamin B1.

No, not at all.
Quote 1) 'pretends' that even when you eat a diet of kiwis, bananas and egg yolks only, its not low in B1.
Quote 2) 'pretends' that this diet (on average / normally / in practice) is not low in B1,
but if you try it to be low in B1, that you may succeed (= different from almost impossible),
as you may make any diet low in B1 if you try hard enough, as i said before.

I hope you are now convinced that I have ground to advice vitamin B1 rich food.

(Quote one) 19 Aug 2010 05:14 pm (last post page 2)
There is no reason whatsoever to advice vitamin B1 rich food...

Quote one was an reaction at this post:
"I was talking about a diet with egg yolk/olive oil and a combination of those fruits:
kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, raisin, dates, strawberry, banana"

No, it was a response to the very first line in the quoting box above.
That first line did not say:
"I hope you are now convinced that I have ground to advice vitamin B1 rich food when the diet is low in B1".

I hope you are now convinced that I have ground to advice vitamin B1 rich food (in those cases)

If, by "those cases" you mean "when the diet is low in B1", of course!
As i said before...
We always advice to add in some food high in X, when the diet is low in X.
If you want to avoid confusion in the future, please be very specific;
if you mean to say "when the diet is low in B1", please do so.

But in this thread I didn't recommend to add high B1 food in general, but only to specific version of the diet.
You splitted off the thread where I recommend high B1 food in general.

All the posts made by you in the split off thread, originally came from this thread.
So, originally, you posted them in this thread,
so originally, in this thread you did recommend to add high B1 food in general.

Also, what started all this, was your talk to a doctor about this diet (in general).

The only thing he worried about was the B-vitamins. Especially vitamin B1.

And there is no ground whatsoever that this diet (in general) is low in B1.

[Kasper]

If you want to avoid confusion in the future, please be very specific;
if you mean to say "when the diet is low in B1", please do so.

You are totally right about this.
I suffer from dyslexia. I've always had some problems with language and translating my thoughts in language.
With english this is even more difficult. But I'm improving my english anyway by posting on Wai forum.

At the time I'm writing I think I'm so clear as possible, but if i read it again the next day, or a couple of hours later, than I notice this is not the case at all.
But I'll try to spend some more time on a post, that will help. It's frustating for me too...

All the posts made by you in the split off thread, originally came from this thread.
So, originally, you posted them in this thread,
so originally, in this thread you did recommend to add high B1 food in general.

That´s right.
But my point is, why do you post in this thread things like: "There is no need to recommend high B1 food in general."
I do agree that in general this diet gives you enough vitamin B1 to prevent vitamin B1 defiencies/Beriberi. You convinced me about this.
That's why I only talk about specific diets in this thread, and not about the diet in general (except for the first post).

But I do think that people will benefit in general from vitamin B1 rich food. But let's talk about that in the other thread...

Also, what started all this, was your talk to a doctor about this diet (in general).

The only thing he worried about was the B-vitamins. Especially vitamin B1.

Yeah, that's were it started. I had a discussion with him. The problem was that I misintrepeted the thoughts behind this diet.
I thought that egg yolk/fish gave you all the A, B-vitamins, D, E and almost all minerals. Fruit gives you beta-carotene and C.
Than he showed me this was not the case, and I realized I should care about the fruits I picked.
The day after that I saw a documentary about Beriberi.

Than I checked a diet I've followed for some time
(the yolks are alternated with fish):

RDA: FDA Men, 19-24yr (177cm/70in, 72kg/160lb)

Your selection:
[Item 1] 7units of Banana (Musa X paradisiaca), [1],
[Item 2] 5units of Kiwi (Actinidia chinensis), [1],
[Item 3] 10units of Chicken egg yolk (Gallus domesticus), raw, [1],
[Item 4] 100ml (milliliters) of Olive oil (Olea europea), [1].

Weight:.................................1500.63g

Nutrients...............................Quantity..............RDA

Energy..................................2414.54kcal .....2900.00kcal
Carbohydrate.............................257.69g ..............?g
Fat......................................148.51g ..............?g
Protein...................................41.08g ..........58.00g
Water...................................1041.22ml .............?ml
Fiber.....................................32.34g ..............?g

Vitamins
Vitamin A, RE (Retinol Equivalent)......1052.22mcg ......1000.00mcg
-Beta-carotene.............................0.00mcg ............?mcg no data:1,3,4
Vitamin B1, Thiamin........................0.82mg ..........1.50mg
Vitamin B2, Riboflavin.....................2.01mg ..........1.70mg
Vitamin B3, Niacin/Nicotinamide............5.91mg .........19.00mg
Vitamin B5, Pantothenic acid...............9.22mg .............?mg
Vitamin B6, Pyridoxine.....................5.68mg ..........2.00mg
Vitamin B8, Biotin.........................0.00mcg ............?mcg no data:1,2,3,4
Vitamin B9, Folic acid...................503.67mcg .......200.00mcg
Vitamin B12................................5.16mcg .........2.00mcg
Vitamin C, Ascorbic acid.................462.18mg .........60.00mg
Vitamin D................................245.68IU ........400.00IU
Vitamin E.................................24.87mg .........10.00mg
Vitamin K................................168.25mcg ........70.00mcg no data:1,3,4

Minerals and trace elements
Calcium, Ca..............................418.93mg .......1200.00mg
Iron, Fe..................................10.06mg .........10.00mg
Magnesium, Mg............................325.45mg ........350.00mg
Phosphorus, P...........................1118.14mg .......1200.00mg
Sodium, Na................................92.16mg .............?mg
Potassium, K............................4729.59mg .............?mg
Zinc, Zn...................................7.12mg .........15.00mg
Iodide, I..................................0.00mcg .......150.00mcg no data:1,2,3,4
Selenium, Se..............................84.95mcg ........70.00mcg

Total sugar...............................37.53g ..............?g no data:1,3,4
Glucose...................................17.15g ..............?g no data:1,3,4
Fructose..................................18.16g ..............?g no data:1,3,4
Sucrose....................................0.62g ..............?g no data:1,3,4
Lactose....................................0.00g ..............?g no data:1,3,4
Starch.....................................0.00g ..............?g no data:1,3,4

Fats
Fat, saturated............................29.85g ..............?g
Fat, monounsaturated......................87.19g ..............?g
Fat, polyunsaturated......................16.58g ..............?g

Omega-3 fatty acids
18:3 n-3, linolenic acid (LNA).............1.12g ..............?g
20:5 n-3, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA)......0.01g ..............?g
22:5 n-3, docosapentaenoic acid (DPA)......0.00g ..............?g
22:6 n-3, docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).......0.18g ..............?g

Cholesterol.............................2126.46mg .............?mg

This diet gave me only 55% of RDA vitamin B1!
I don't know if this cause beriberi, but I dont want to have any risk on a chronic disease.
This is why I focus so much on vitamin B1, because beriberi is chronic.
Maybe 55% doesn't cause you beriberi I don't know, but I don't want to take the risk and we need vitamin B1 for other reasons as well.

I know it's not very much in energy, but I did follow it, I didn't loose weight, because I was not in any sense active in that time.
I also need much fat, but I don't like avocadoes, I can't get good nuts. So I need much (coconut) oil.
I only ate kiwi's and banana's, because it's easy to prepare (I eat kiwi with shell), it was very cheap (really important for me) and I like it.
I thought I could eat any thing, as long it included some fish, egg yolk and fruit. I know you didn't write this on the website, but I intrepeted it this way.

So I was really shocked that a diet I followed for some weeks was so low in vitamin B1. I thought as long as I eat enough egg yolks this cannot be the case.
I did post my diet here, but I thought I could change my fruits as much as I wanted.

So if I read post like this:

1) I have shown you that even when you eat kiwis, bananas and egg yolks only,
you still ingest all the B1 that you need, so that you certainly dont need extra B1.
....
2)This diet is not low in B1, unless you try it to be low in B1

Quote 1) 'pretends' that even when you eat a diet of kiwis, bananas and egg yolks only, its not low in B1.
Quote 2) 'pretends' that this diet (on average / normally / in practice) is not low in B1,
but if you try it to be low in B1, that you may succeed (= different from almost impossible),
as you may make any diet low in B1 if you try hard enough, as i said before.

I feel like you are not taking me seriously.
Because I didn't try to make this diet low in vitamin B1 at the time I ate egg yolk/fish/coconut oil/banana/kiwi. It just happened.

So if you want to pretend that this diet in practice is not low in B1, than I believe I prooved you are wrong, because it happens with me (in practice).
I used the nutrient calculator, I posted it on the website, but I misintrepeted the thoughts behind this diet.

What I would like is, somewhere on http://www.waidiet.com:
It's very important, if you want to start this diet, to first post your version of this diet on the forum.

And maybe something like this?
Fruit gives you all the vitamin C and carotenes you need.
Alternating (sea) fish with egg yolks will take care of the Vitamin A, B3(?), B5, B8, B12, D, K, omega 3 fats, cholesterol, iodide, selenium, zinc, phosphorus, sulfur, chloride, sodium, fluoride, iron, molybdenum, vanadium.
(I'm not very sure about B3 and the minerals...)
It also gives you much of vitamin B2, B9, E.
Make sure you choose the right combination of fruits (and nuts), so that you ingest enough vitamin B1, B2, B6, B9, E and other minerals.

I'm not sure if this right, but if you could make this right, it could be usefull.

[RRM]

I suffer from dyslexia. ... It's frustating for me too...

Im sorry, i had no idea.
Thank you for clearing that up.

I do agree that in general this diet gives you enough vitamin B1 to prevent vitamin B1 defiencies/Beriberi. You convinced me about this.

I hadnt noticed that either...

I checked a diet I've followed for some time
...
7units of Banana,
5units of Kiwi,
10units of Chicken egg yolk,
100ml (milliliters) of Olive oil
...
Energy..................................2414.54kcal .....2900.00kcal
Vitamin B1, Thiamin........................0.82mg ..........1.50mg

This diet gave me only 55% of RDA vitamin B1!
I don't know if this cause beriberi,

Your diet is a bit extreme, as 37% of your energy comes from oil and its restricted to specific fruits.
Usually, this is just a phase, and you will start eating other fruits too (and drink them!).
But lets see what may cause beriberi (as even this will not always cause beriberi): a diet of white rice only,
and a few studies suggest only in combination with food very high in anti-B1 activity.
But lets just stick to the B1.
If you eat 2414.54 kcal in white cooked rice, depending on the specie, you may ingest
(87.24 kcal / 100 gram) 0.55 mg B1.
Your diet supplied you with 49% more B1 and no anti-B1 activity.

I was really shocked that a diet I followed for some weeks was so low in vitamin B1.

I understand, as 55% of RDA may seem very low, indeed.
RDAs may sometimes be way too high though.
And Ive seen (poor) students on diets way more extreme than yours.
Also, before you would end up having severe B1 deficiency,
your body would continuously send you warning signals,
making you feel bad/tired, irritable and confused, and making you lose weight.
(the mild deficiency symptoms)
Anybody would start asking himself: "what am i doing wrong?", and "am i missing something?".
Many, many people eat very poor diets, and yet they rarely go from that initial stage to a severe deficiency.
Usually, they are alcoholics.

I feel like you are not taking me seriously.

I understand now that you feel that way.

if you want to pretend that this diet in practice is not low in B1, than I believe I prooved you are wrong, because it happens with me (in practice).

As i said before:
You can make any diet low in B1 (or some other nutrient).
That doesnt make that diet low in B1....
Right???
A white rice based diet in practice is not low in B1,
unless you eat white rice only, and also not much of it.
But that does not make THE white rice based diet low in B1.
This diet is CERTAINLY not low in B1, as i showed you many times.

What I would like is, somewhere on http://www.waidiet.com:
It's very important, if you want to start this diet, to first post your version of this diet on the forum.

And maybe something like this?
Fruit gives you all the vitamin C and carotenes you need.
Alternating (sea) fish with egg yolks will take care of the Vitamin A, B3(?), B5, B8, B12, D, K, omega 3 fats, cholesterol, iodide, selenium, zinc, phosphorus, sulfur, chloride, sodium, fluoride, iron, molybdenum, vanadium.
(I'm not very sure about B3 and the minerals...)
It also gives you much of vitamin B2, B9, E.
Make sure you choose the right combination of fruits (and nuts), so that you ingest enough vitamin B1, B2, B6, B9, E and other minerals.

I understand your concern, but there really is no need for that.
Besides that, the above is not accurate, and its impossible to make it sufficiently accurate to be totally safe.
The nutrient calculator takes care of all this, no?

[Aytundra]

First off, thank you Kasper for bringing up the topic of Vitamin B1/thiamine deficiency.

My next *random* question on this forum would be: (smirks, *random*;not so random, haha I think you all know I would ask this question, after my no banana question. Kasper you stole my thunder.)

What if I excluded oranges from this diet?
No oranges

Then RRM or Oscar will tell me I can compensate my diet with these fruits:

100 gram of salmon (170 mcg) or tuna (160 mcg) contains little vitamin B1,
so that its easy to compensate for a partial loss by consuming the right piece of fruit.
1 orange 110 mcg B1
1 mango 120 mcg B1
1 avocado 130 mcg B1
1 muskmelon 220 mg B1
1 pineapple 420 mcg B1
1 honeydew 880 mcg B1
1 watermelon 3610 mcg B1

but

Is it so unrealistic to use a combination of these fruits as fruit source in your diet?

kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, cucumber, strawberry, cherry and banana.

Kasper meant that eating these combination of fruits would also lead to low amounts of Vitamin B1/thiamine.

and I agree with Kasper's question.
I think it is realistic that people will choose to purchase Kasper's group of fruits over RRM's group of fruits listed in these quotes.
I will be one of those people that will eat fruits like: apple, pear, banana or cucumber if my fridge ran out of oranges.

Hence I will be deficient in vitamin B1, if I exempted oranges from my diet. (Exempting oranges: Either for a dislike of oranges, or just the convenience of biting into an apple pear, banana or cuumber is a lot less effort than peeling an orange. Both I think are quite plausible reasons of why someone would not eat oranges.)

The reason is that if I exempt orange from my diet I will very rarely (<95% of the time) purchase mango, avocado, muskmelon, pineapple, honeydew or watermelon to consume, as these are very expensive fruits.
Fruits like honeydew and watermelon are only cheap in the summer time, and those I would purchase moderately (1-3 melon a week) only in the summer.
Fruits like mango, avocado and muskmelon are kind of exotic, they are not available year round at cheap prices, If I wanted something cheap and at a perfect ripeness, I would have to wait until summer and that would only be like a window of 2-4weeks in a year.

So if I were to go on a wai diet solely on the conclusion of avoiding cooked foods, my instinct would be to purchase apples, oranges, bananas, cucumbers, and maybe pears for 1)economic reasons + 2)zero cooked foods.

I believe that new people who attempt this diet will very very likely to stock up on inexpensive and common fruits like: apples, oranges, kiwi, cucumber, tomatoes, pears and bananas.

[RRM]

What if I excluded oranges from this diet?
No oranges

Clementines or mangoes are a good alternative. (2/3 of the B1)

I will be one of those people that will eat fruits like: apple, pear, banana or cucumber if my fridge ran out of oranges.

Then you are one of those people that pick the wrong fruits.
We have a nutrient calculator on this site.
Its there for a purpose: so that you can check which combination is good enough.
If your diet lacks a certain nutrient, you add a food that is high in that nutrient.
Quite simple.

I believe that new people who attempt this diet will very very likely to stock up on inexpensive and common fruits like: apples, oranges, kiwi, cucumber, tomatoes, pears and bananas.

That is why the nutrient calculator is here:
http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-calcsimple.html
So that you can adjust your diet to make it better.