Nitrate

[dime]

From what I've read, evolutionary nitrate may have been a regular part of our diet, as it used to be present in water for example, whereas now it's largely filtered due to strict regulations.
Average total daily intake in Europe is 56-140mg nitrate and <2mg nitrite per day. Combined with water in some places it can reach above 350mg nitrate.
I'm getting near zero in my diet, so my motivation for trying beetroot was purely to see if some nitrate in my diet is necessary or not.

I don't like all the antinutrients in beetroot though. Is there maybe a better wai-compliant alternative for a food with good nitrate content?

[RRM]

Is there maybe a better wai-compliant alternative for a food with good nitrate content?

Strawberries, cherries and raspberries, and some apples. (differs very much) Nabrzyski M et al
Strawberries may contain more than 10 mg/ 100 g., grapes 1.7 mg and oranges, apples, peaches and pears between 0 and 1 mg,
though occasionally more (between 1 and 4 mg).
Schuddeboom et al

Beware of the aspect of nitrite and nitrate increasing endogenous N-nitroso compound formation, though.
Also consider the risk they may pose regarding methaemoglobinaemia. Chan TY
Increased levels of nitrate / nitrite may be due to the intensive use of fertilizers and animal and municipal wastes.
The bioavailability of dietary nitrate is extremely high; almost 100%. van Velzen AG et al

[dime]

I found something more here. Couldn't copy paste so I made a screenshot :)

So average nitrate content of fruits is 10-20mg/kg

pic-1349255240.png

[dime]

What if I buy potassium nitrat (food additive E252), and put some in my drinking water?
I have a very precise weighing scale (accurate to milligrams) so I can measure exactly 30-40mg to add to one liter for example.

[RRM]

Please explain to me:
what would you need the nitrate for?

[dime]

I think answering the question "what I need it for" is irrelevant, because we can never know in full details it's effect, or the effect of any other compound in the body. At least not yet.

If it has been regular part of our diet for thousands of years, then me not getting any in my diet sounds a bit suboptimal to me.
It is questionable and impossible to know what is the optimal amount, but at least some low safe amount that everyone else ingests on average sounds better to me than none at all.

I've noticed a lot of hair loss in the past few months, and nitric oxide seems to have some role controlling the hair cycles, and nitrate seems to relate to nitric oxide, so there may be some connection here, who knows. A popular and somewhat effective cream for hair loss treatment (I don't really know much about this stuff) is Minoxidil, which as far as I know is extremely similar to nitric oxide.
But this is by no means the reason why I'm interested in this as I said above.

[RRM]

I think answering the question "what I need it for" is irrelevant

Actually, i was curious as to whether you think its an actual nutrient, required in your diet,
and required for specific processes in the body.

If it has been regular part of our diet for thousands of years

It still is.
The difference is that since the large scale use of fertilizers, more than before nitrate ends up in cultivated foods (such as fruits).
So, what in your view might be small amounts in fruits,
might actually be relatively high levels.

then me not getting any in my diet sounds a bit suboptimal to me.

All fruits contain at least minute amounts.
Wiki:

Nitrites oxidize the iron atoms in hemoglobin from ferrous iron (2+) to ferric iron (3+), rendering it unable to carry oxygen. Kim-Shapiro DB et al This process can lead to generalized lack of oxygen in organ tissue and a dangerous condition called methemoglobinemia. Although nitrite converts to ammonia, if there is more nitrite than can be converted, the animal slowly suffers from a lack of oxygen. Stoltenow C et al

[dime]

Actually, i was curious as to whether you think its an actual nutrient, required in your diet,
and required for specific processes in the body.

I don't think it's something essential, but I don't really know, haven't read much about it.

It still is.
The difference is that since the large scale use of fertilizers, more than before nitrate ends up in cultivated foods (such as fruits).
So, what in your view might be small amounts in fruits,
might actually be relatively high levels.

As far as I know not much (if any) fertilizer is used on fruit trees, but I'm not sure maybe it's different in large-scale fruit production.
On grain crops massive amounts of fertilizers are necessary though, I know this because my father is growing grains.
To me it seems that it's much more related to the type of plant though. Grains don't seem to have all that much nitrate (despite all the fertilizers), in contrast to beets and leafy greens for example.

Anyway, the problem is that I don't really eat that much fruit. Two big oranges in the morning is usually all the fruit I eat.

[Kasper]

You could also try to raise L-arginine in diet.
Or maybe L-arginine powder in pure form ?

It's important to eat L-arginine troughout the day if you want to boost nitrix oxide.

[dime]

I think we are all eating enough protein (I know I am, more than enough..)

[overkees]

A realistic wai diet contains virtually no nitrate

Is there maybe a better wai-compliant alternative for a food with good nitrate content?

Strawberries, cherries and raspberries, and some apples. (differs very much) Nabrzyski M et al
Strawberries may contain more than 10 mg/ 100 g., grapes 1.7 mg and oranges, apples, peaches and pears between 0 and 1 mg,
though occasionally more (between 1 and 4 mg).
Schuddeboom et al

Okay this is all the fruit that is very pesticide rich. If you buy these organic, the nitrate content is much less because the use of fertillizers is.

Results: Organic crops contained significantly more vitamin C, iron, magnesium, and phosphorus and significantly less nitrates than conventional crops. There were nonsignificant trends showing less protein but of a better quality and a higher content of nutritionally significant minerals with lower amounts of some heavy metals in organic crops compared to conventional ones.

Another article I read stated that orange juice complains virtually none.

Banana, apple sauce, and oranges had nitrate and nitrite concentrations (mg/100 g FW) of 5 and 0.009, 0.3 and 0.008, and 0.8 and 0.015, respectively.

So for me, I would still get very very low nitrates if I were on my version of 100% wai. Eating bananas, drinking orange juice. Only buying organic other fruits, which I eat very little of and only some times a month (some dried prunes every now and then). So realistic and pesticide free fruits simply don't contain dietary nitrate to give benefits.

Dietary nitrate beneficial, nitrate as a nutrient
Now this:

The current study indicates that a similar process occurs in the vessel wall, where NO2– is also converted to NO. The conversion of nitrite to NO by the enzyme XOR (and/or other metabolic pathways as discussed above) could replace or augment endothelial production of NO and thereby inhibit processes known to contribute to atherosclerosis, restenosis, and vascular inflammation. This human nitrate cycle may account for some of the anti-hypertensive effect observed in diets that are enriched in vegetables and fruit, such as in the DASH (Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension) study.

also in the abstract of the same article:

Alef and colleagues provide evidence that in the injured vessel wall, the disruption of the NOS pathway is countered by induction of xanthine oxidoreductase, an enzyme capable of producing NO from nitrite. In addition, they link low dietary nitrite levels to increased severity of myointimal hyperplasia following vessel injury in mice.

This article also is very interesting:

The salivary glands extract NO3– from the plasma, concentrating it 10- to 20-fold Anaerobic bacteria in the mouth that express nitrate reductases subsequently convert the nitrate to nitrite. When nitrite-rich saliva is swallowed, it reacts with the acidic gastric juices to form nitrous acid (HNO2), which is exceptionally active as an antibacterial. Subsequently, HNO2 decomposes into NO2–, NO, and water. This nitrate-nitrite-nitric oxide pathway is regulated differently than the classic l-arginine-nitric oxide synthase nitric oxide pathway, and it is greatly enhanced during hypoxia and acidosis. Several lines of research now indicate that the nitrate-nitrite-nitric oxide pathway is involved in regulation of blood flow, cell metabolism, and signaling, as well as in tissue protection during hypoxia. In any event, NO increases local blood flow and protects the gastric mucosa.

We can conclude that there are more pathways then previously recognized and all seem to indicate that dietary nitrates are very beneficial for healing purposes like killing bacteria and increasing blood flow and muscle relaxation.

This article goes even further.

These data demonstrate the significant influence of dietary nitrite intake on the maintenance of steady-state NO levels. Dietary nitrite and nitrate may serve as essentials nutrient for optimal cardiovascular health and may provide a novel prevention/treatment modality for disease associated with NO insufficiency.

Dangers?

Beware of the aspect of nitrite and nitrate increasing endogenous N-nitroso compound formation, though.
Also consider the risk they may pose regarding methaemoglobinaemia. Chan TY
Increased levels of nitrate / nitrite may be due to the intensive use of fertilizers and animal and municipal wastes.
The bioavailability of dietary nitrate is extremely high; almost 100%. van Velzen AG et al

Yes, and what does this article has to mean? There is no reference is this article, no results, no experiment data. It is scientifically useless and based on fault assumptions. There is simply no proof of the above statement that methaemglobinaemia is due to the nitrate.

To come back to the issue of nitrate being potentially "dangerous" according to you RRM:

There are two main health issues: the linkage between nitrate and (i) infant methaemoglobinaemia, also known as blue baby syndrome, and (ii) cancers of the digestive tract. The evidence for nitrate as a cause of these serious diseases remains controversial. On one hand there is evidence that shows there is no clear association between nitrate in drinking water and the two main health issues with which it has been linked, and there is even evidence emerging of a possible benefit of nitrate in cardiovascular health. There is also evidence of nitrate intake giving protection against infections such as gastroenteritis.

Also in the articles I posted previously in the reaching 60 cp topic, this false assumption of nitrate leading to methaemoglobinaemia is discussed, you probably didn't read it so I will post it again:

In the early 1950s, methemoglobinemia and cyanosis were seen in infants fed formula made with contaminated well water. The effect was ascribed to the high nitrate content of these wells (3). The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) therefore set a Maximum Contaminant Level for nitrate of 44 mg/L (equal to 10 mg nitrate-nitrogen/L or 10 ppm) (6).
The nitrate in the offending wells came from fecal contamination. It is now thought that methemoglobinemia was not caused by nitrate but by fecal bacteria that infected the infants and produced nitric oxide in their gut. Nitric oxide can convert hemoglobin to methemoglobin. The key role of intestinal infection rather than nitrate was confirmed by an experiment in 1948, in which infants who were fed 100 mg nitrate · kg−1 · d−1 did not develop methemoglobinemia. When they were fed bacteria from contaminated wells, however, methemoglobinemia did develop (3). This suggests that the nitrate concentrations commonly encountered in foods and water are unlikely to cause methemoglobinemia.

He refers to this article: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewc ... nomyfacpub
where you can also read about the well that contained bacterias that probably caused the methemoglobinemia.

There were even tests done to isolate nitrate and use it on infants that, to me, conclude that nitrate is not harmful if used, like everything, in moderation:

Cornblath and Hartmann (1948) supplied nitrate-containing water to eight healthy infants (ages 2 days to 11 months) at doses of 50 or 100 mg NO3/kg/day (11 or 23 mg nitrate-nitrogen/kg/day). Assuming average consumption of about 0.16 L/kg/day, this corresponds to concentrations of 70 or 140 mg nitrate- nitrogen/L. No cyanosis was evident in any infant, and the highest concentration of methemoglobin was 7.5%. These authors also administered doses of 100 mg/kg of nitrate to four healthy infants (age 2 days to 6 months) and to two infants (age 6 and 7 weeks) who had been admitted to the hospital for cyanosis. No cyanosis was produced in the healthy infants, but cyanosis did occur in the individuals with a prior history of cyanosis.

Conclusion:

So using logical sense we should not be scared of dietary nitrate at all and might even start eating some organic foods that are high in nitrates in addition to a wai diet. I read in one of the articles discussing on the safety that 300-500mg is considered safe and beneficial and supplementation with nitrate salts can be harmful if you ingest too much. So organic beet juice (max 1L a day) is considered beneficial regarding nitrate content.

[dime]

I read in one of the articles discussing on the safety that 300-500mg is considered safe and beneficial and supplementation with nitrate salts can be harmful if you ingest too much. So organic beet juice (max 1L a day) is considered beneficial regarding nitrate content.

So how much is too much? I'm not convinced that so much (300-500mg) is a good idea based on average intakes in the population of below 200mg.
1L of beetroot juice will have above 500mg if I'm not wrong btw. I would not bet on the "it's organic so it will have less".
Nitrate salts in beetroot juice can be exactly as harmful as pure nitrate salts, chemically they are the same nitrate salts. Consider also that beets seems to be pretty full of antinutrients.

Anyway, I bought some KNO3 and will be putting 50mg in 1L water.

[RRM]

So for me, I would still get very very low nitrates if I were on my version of 100% wai.

Thats actually a good thing...
Not much nitrate in human evolution.

...The conversion of nitrite to NO by the enzyme XOR ... could replace or augment endothelial production of NO and thereby inhibit processes known to contribute to atherosclerosis, restenosis, and vascular inflammation.

NO is not just a signaling molecule, but also a very powerful free radical.
Free radicals may damage healthy cells.
Thats why they need to be kept in check by anti-oxidants.
Exhaust fumes are loaded with free radicals such as NO.
To protect our organs, low levels of NO are essential.
More NO means more oxidative damage.
Yes, if your blood vessels contain a plaque of lipids, cholesterol and salts (from a bad diet), NO helps to clean up the mess.
With the Wai diet, your blood vessels remain clean,
and its best to minimize oxidative damage from NO.

This article also is very interesting:
The salivary glands extract NO3– from the plasma, concentrating it 10- to 20-fold Anaerobic bacteria in the mouth that express nitrate reductases subsequently convert the nitrate to nitrite. When nitrite-rich saliva is swallowed, it reacts with the acidic gastric juices to form nitrous acid (HNO2), which is exceptionally active as an antibacterial. Subsequently, HNO2 decomposes into NO2–, NO, and water.

Indeed.
Elevated NO2 may cause acute lung injury.

dietary nitrates are very beneficial for healing purposes like killing bacteria

Thats what all compounds with toxic properties can do, indeed.

This article goes even further.
"These data demonstrate the significant influence of dietary nitrite intake on the maintenance of steady-state NO levels. Dietary nitrite and nitrate may serve as essentials nutrient for optimal cardiovascular health and may provide a novel prevention/treatment modality for disease associated with NO insufficiency."

When your arteries are clogged by a bad diet, increasing NO may counteract this, yes.
Unfortunately, elevated NO comes with increased oxidative damage.
When your diet is the Wai diet, you need neither.

There is simply no proof of the above statement that methaemglobinaemia is due to the nitrate.

Just a few studies:

"A directly proportionate relationship was seen between methemoglobin level in the blood and nitrate ingestion." Zeman C et al

"Methemoglobinemia among infants consuming nitrate-contaminated well water ... are well-described pediatric concerns." Karr C

"We established a direct correlation between the level of methemoglobin and the nitrate concentrations in water samples." Niţuc E et al

"The highest mean Met-Hb level was in Khan-Younis, where the highest mean nitrate concentration was recorded in drinking water." Abu-Naser AA et al

"Study children drinking well water with a nitrate concentration >50mg/l were significantly more likely to have methemoglobinemia than those drinking well water with a nitrate concentration <50mg/l " Sadeq M et al

"It is important not to feed infants with vegetables having a high nitrate content (e.g., courgette, spinach, beets and green beans) to resolve constipation since, particularly in the first months of life, they may cause severe methemoglobinemia." Savino F et al

[RRM]

Nitrate inhibits iodide uptake, which may disrupt thyroid functioning.

"In women, high nitrate exposure was significantly associated with subclinical hypothyroidism" Aschebrook-Kilfoy B et al

"examination of thyroid glands from sharks exposed to elevated nitrate revealed the development of diffuse hyperplastic goiter." Morris AL et al

"We found positive associations for nitrate intake and both papillary and follicular thyroid cancer among men. Nitrite intake was associated with increased risk of follicular thyroid cancer among men." Kilfoy BA et al

"Increasing intake of dietary nitrate was associated with an increased risk of thyroid cancer and with the prevalence of hypothyroidism" Ward MH et al

"The overall results indicated the development of a relative state of functional hypothyroidism with enlarged thyroid after nitrate exposure." Mukhopadhyay S et al

[overkees]

"In women, high nitrate exposure was significantly associated with subclinical hypothyroidism" Aschebrook-Kilfoy B et al

The conclusion of this article reads:

Although these data do not provide strong support for an association between nitrate in drinking water and thyroid health, our results do suggest that further exploration of this hypothesis is warranted using studies that incorporate individual measures of both dietary and drinking water nitrate intake.

"examination of thyroid glands from sharks exposed to elevated nitrate revealed the development of diffuse hyperplastic goiter." Morris AL et al

What have elevated nitrate levels in sharks got to do with humans?

"We found positive associations for nitrate intake and both papillary and follicular thyroid cancer among men. Nitrite intake was associated with increased risk of follicular thyroid cancer among men." Kilfoy BA et al

Yes, but the article fails to name what levels of nitrate this is. And I think you can establish statistical cancer risks for almost every substance.

"Increasing intake of dietary nitrate was associated with an increased risk of thyroid cancer and with the prevalence of hypothyroidism" Ward MH et al

But it also reads:

We investigated the association of nitrate intake from public water supplies and diet with the risk of thyroid cancer and self-reported hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism in a cohort of 21,977 older women in Iowa who were enrolled in 1986 and who had used the same water supply for >10 years. We estimated nitrate ingestion from drinking water using a public database of nitrate measurements (1955-1988). Dietary nitrate intake was estimated using a food frequency questionnaire and levels from the published literature. Cancer incidence was determined through 2004.

Self reported hypo- and hyperthyroidism?? Same water supply? How can you say nitrate is the issue? There are potential other pathogens or substances that come with the elevated nitrate content.

"The overall results indicated the development of a relative state of functional hypothyroidism with enlarged thyroid after nitrate exposure." Mukhopadhyay S et al

Now this indeed is an interesting article.

Just like

About the previous page articles, it is almsot all related to preassumptions of nitrate being bad and almsot every article uses well water. We don't want those articles, because those might contain other contaminants or pathogens that can cause the case of cyanosis. Because there are articles that don't see these huge increases in cyanosis in infants, like one of mine articles that didn't use well water.

And besides, to add some nuance, I am not advicing young babies to consume raw beet root juice. I am just considering the fact that we got nitrate for a long time in our human evolution due to the fact that there is good evidence we used to eat several green vegetables and also alot of roots and in the right proportions it might have a very beneficial nutrientlike effect on us. But the question remains: How much is too much and how much do we need to get benefits?

But also, how would all your articles relate to human consumption of 500g of organic beets or organic spinache once or twice per week? The nitrate content is more than twice as low in these organic products as can be read in an article I don't want to search again at the moment. Everything should of course be used in moderation.

How much is too much??

Speculation:
Oh yeah, about the iodine, I also think that we got a lot more of that too in our evolutionary past. So that this increased intake might also indicate that we might've used nitrate to compensate for this effect. Just like the Maasai do for their high iron consumption, they eat spices and leaves that contain loads of tannins to compensate their iron overload.