Fiber

[overkees]

If you have a low CP, then too much fiber is a problem.

However, now with a higher CP, I can eat pretty much all the fiber I want (I'm eating over 80g of fiber a day. On some days +100g of fiber) and have no problems anymore. Sometimes a little bit of flatulence, but not more than I had previosuly, the smell is odorless.
You seem to be very scared of fiber, RRM. I think that it is not essential, but can't do much harm, we used to eat alot of fiber for thousands of years, I think our systems are more than well adapted.
Organic dried fruits make a lot of difference. If I eat commercial dried fruits it will result in lots of troubles.

[RRM]

If you have a low CP, then yes, too much fiber is a problem.

Ha ha
All animals that eat a lot of fiber, have big swollen bellies, and fart a lot (gorillas, elephants, cows etc)
All low CPs?
Maybe you can teach them to breathe properly.

I can eat pretty much all the fiber I want ... Sometimes a little bit of flatulence

You can opt for less fiber, meaning less flatulence.
Fiber is partly bacterially decomposed, creating gasses (methane etc).
Soluble fiber (some binding to bile acids, hindering cholesterol reuptake) is readily fermented in the colon into gases
(and partly (25%) uitilized for energy; 2 kcal / g).
Insoluble fiber (not utilized for energy) mainly ferments in the large intestine. (plants and fruits contain both)
Whereas starches (if not enzymatically decomposed) are fully fermented, lignins (also insoluble fibers) are not fermented (and anti-nutrients).
Whereas water-soluble fibers tend to slow the movement of food, insoluble fibers tend to accelerate it.
Currently, they also label some poly-sugars as fibers, while they are actually not fibrous. (eg inulin (fructans) and some starches)
Inulin also evokes methane production (25-30% is utilized for energy).
Also resistant starch (as in legumes and unripe bananas), pectins (veggies and unripe fruits) and beta-glucans (grains and unripe fruits)
readily cause flatulence, similar to oligosaccharides (2 to 10 simple sugars linked up).
So that the riper the fruit, the less flatulence.

You seem to be very scared of fiber, RRM. ... I think our systems are more than well adapted.

I dont know if "scared" is the right word, overkees.
Yes, i love having no flatulence and a flat stomach. (Similar to watermelon, OJ is 0.2% fiber; when OJ is sieved, even less)
Also, the less energy goes into digestion, the more energetic you feel.

[fred]

If you have a low CP, then yes, too much fiber is a problem.

Ha ha
All animals that eat a lot of fiber, have big swollen bellies, and fart a lot (gorillas, elephants, cows etc)
All low CPs?
Maybe you can teach them to breathe properly.

That is simply not a fair comparison.
Nature is about perpetuating the specie (ensuring reproduction), not about superior health. And you know that RRM. It is why the Wai diet is not a strict raw palaeolithic diet (as our ancestors ate). Buteyko's aim is optimal health and covers many if not all health factors. Diet is one (very important) among many others (breathing being the most important one).

Overkees and others have seen huge improvement in their ability to digest fibers (and in their health) with practising Buteyko, why not take them seriously? In my opinion, Buteyko doesn't represent any threat for Wai diet, because it includes a healthy diet like Wai. Only, as overkees suggested, it would be beneficial to fine tune the Wai diet according to one CP (or body oxygenation).

(Can you move this post and the other threads about Buteyko in the relevant section please?)

[RRM]

That is simply not a fair comparison.

I agree.

Overkees and others have seen huge improvement in their ability to digest fibers (and in their health) with practising Buteyko, why not take them seriously?

Humans simply lack the enzymes to digest fibers enzymatically.
Hence the bacterial digestion, which releases methane.
Nothing breathing can do about that.
Or are you suggesting otherwise?

In my opinion, Buteyko doesn't represent any threat for Wai diet

I dont feel threatened, fred...
I keep on repeating myself: Im all for buteyko / breathing properly.
But breathing properly does not supplies us with the enzymes to digest fiber.

[overkees]

There will be more flatulence when eating much fiber, yes, but if it's odourless I have no troubles with it (and others around me won't even notice ). The high fiber content is mainly due to eating 4 avocados a day. That is already 60g of fiber.
I must confess that I indeed do have a more swollen belly. But it is not bothering me at all. In fact my abs can be seen better with a swollen belly.

In short: I dont experience any discomforts when eating these huge amounts of fiber.

[fred]

Still Overkees and others have improved their ability to digest fibres by increasing their CP. The fact that you can't explain that does not make them liars.
Gut bacteria are probably better controlled with high CP, and less bacteria=less flatulence/odour.

[overkees]

Yes, no soiling, no cramps, no discomforts, no diarrhea, no odour. Alot more beneficial bacteria and a better acidity due to lacto fermentation by beneficial bacteria.

But the difference is that I chew alot better nowadays. This probably makes it a lot easier for beneficial bacteria to win of the more complex fungi and yeasts that require more complete foods? So that if you chew better your body will digest more and the products that will end up in the gut will mainly be completely broken down to readily absorbable blocks and nutrients.

[RRM]

Still Overkees and others have improved their ability to digest fibres by increasing their CP.

Thats is just your observation. That is not science.
Its not a fact at all that overkees has improved his ability to digest fibers.
He reports less flatulence, which may be an indication for a lot of things.
If sugars are not properly digested and absorbed, they will cause problems (incl. causing gasses) as they move on to the colon.
Thats just one alternative cause of more flatulence.
So, if overkees chews his food better, more starches will be completely broken down (predigested by enzymes in the mouth already), and absorbed before they can cause problems later on. Nutrients in general (including simple sugars) may get better absorbed from well-chewed food.
Fibers may have something or nothing to do with a decrease in flatulence in overkees.

Gut bacteria are probably better controlled with high CP, and less bacteria=less flatulence/odour.

The bacteria that help digesting fibers through fermentation are actually beneficial (yielding short-chain fatty acids).
There is no indication that high CP will decrease their numbers, because that is when fiber might cause more problems.
We are way into sole speculation now....

[RRM]

Alot more beneficial bacteria and a better acidity due to lacto fermentation by beneficial bacteria.

Oh, come on!!!
You make it sound like facts, but you are just speculating!

But the difference is that I chew alot better nowadays. This probably makes it a lot easier for beneficial bacteria to win of the more complex fungi and yeasts that require more complete foods?

No, chewing properly makes digestion in general better, which might explain everything.
I doubt that fungi and yeasts are affected by chewing.

[overkees]

Well, the fact that my stools previously were sticky and very bad smelling, indicates to me that there was something bad going on there. Fact of the matter is, if you don't chew well alot of food will putrefy in the gut, allowing pathogens (Im not saying they will) to feast on it. Now I can't prove this, but this is just experience talking. I had diarrhea every week at least twice a week for since as long as I can remember. I thought this was normal...

That's the whole problem, same goes for the teeth topic. You cant accept anything from experience, unless there is some scientific research done according to your believes about a particular subject. And it all boils down to harmful substances vs not harmful essential substances, that is what you believe in.

But hey! There is research done in this matter. http://www.microbiomejournal.com/content/1/1/3

Given the fact that chewing is totally not taken into consideration I think we can say that indeed that beneficial bacteria play a very, very important role.

And yes, the gaps protocol works wonders for thousands of people worldwide. In some cases the severe autism cases become liveable for the parents. Discredit all this, simply because there is no scientific research done. Or better: That you have not read any scientific articles on pubmed?

You know, pubmed is not everything. PubMed represents the material in the National Library of Medicine, and is a medical, rather than a scientific, database, and there is a large amount of important research that it ignores. And because of the authoritarian and conformist nature of the medical profession, when a researcher observes something that is contrary to majority opinion, the title of the publication is unlikely to focus on that. In too many articles in medical journals, the title and conclusions positively misrepresent the data reported in the article.

So, I will share experiences and work with models to strengthen a focus on a particular health issue. The placebo effect works, but you have to believe in it. This is what I believe in, this is what helps me, this is what helps alot of other people, alot of research also seems to indiciate it is happening, so I go for it. This doesn't make it less usefull than a scientific (medical) paper.

[RRM]

Overkees and fred, please read what im actually saying / writing prior to responding.
Please re-read what i said, and then re-read your responses.
Its as if we are posting in totally different threads, and somehow these threads have been merged into one thread...

You cant accept anything from experience,

I can very well accept your experience, and of course you can speculate anything you want,
but if you say something like this:

Alot more beneficial bacteria and a better acidity due to lacto fermentation by beneficial bacteria.

Thats a statement, presented as fact.
Its not a description of what you experienced, but a hypothesis presented as facts.
If its a hypothesis (which i think it is) you could state something like: "maybe its due to..." or " it might be that"

I think we can say that indeed that beneficial bacteria play a very, very important role.

Of course, bacteria do play a very, very important role,
but we have no clue whether they played any role in your experienced decrease in flatulence.
Thats merely speculation.

And yes, the gaps protocol works wonders for thousands of people worldwide. In some cases the severe autism cases become liveable for the parents. Discredit all this, simply because there is no scientific research done. Or better: That you have not read any scientific articles on pubmed?

This has NOTHING to do with my response.
I did not say anything about gaps protocol.
I discredited no theory / practise of any kind.
All i did, was responding to your statement (see above) and this statement:

Overkees and others have improved their ability to digest fibres by increasing their CP.

Which is also just a hypothesis or thought, but presented as a fact.
Thats all im responding to: thoughts presented as facts.
With a different wording, you will get a different response from me.

In too many articles in medical journals, the title and conclusions positively misrepresent the data reported in the article.

absolutely, but that has nothing to do with why and how i responded.

This is what I believe in, this is what helps me, this is what helps alot of other people, alot of research also seems to indiciate it is happening, so I go for it. This doesn't make it less usefull than a scientific (medical) paper.

Of course. Go for it. (no sarcasm or pun intended)

[overkees]

Not all fiber is the same. Antibacterial fiber can be a major help in controlling disbalances in gut health. Reduction of certain fibers, orange fiber for example is highly probacterial, will have major benefits aswell. Best way to use the fiber as a medicine is to eat it apart from the food itself, because otherwise it might hinder digestion (as I do with carrot fibers).

Almost any other fiber from fruits causes troubles, except for dates and pineapples for now (might do some more experiments). My guess is that some fruits are higher in antimicrobial potency due to their climate circumstances. Therefore tropical fruits will cause less of the soiling and bloating effects than the others.

[RRM]

Antibacterial fiber .... orange fiber for example is highly probacterial,

Can you back this up with scientific evidence?

[overkees]

It is not so easy to give good scientific references for that. It mainly has to do partially with logic and I must add some nuance.

Carrots grow underground, they therefore are heavily under influence of all kinds of fungi and bacteria, the carrot itself harvests therefore alot of antimicrobial properties to protect itself. Alot of plants have this mechanism, alot of which are 'antinutrients'. The carrot differs in this, it doesn't have to be cooked because it is very nutritious and very sweet tasting, alot of it is fructose. Therefore, by logic, raw carrot will have alot of antimicrobial activity. The nuance is that the fiber in carrot is highly indigestible to bacteria. Not antibacterial per se. I have juiced carrot fiber and took the fiber out in the trashbin, and after alot of time, it still looked very good, very orange, no molds or anything going on there. Might do yourself some experiments with it and please put apple fiber next to it to compare. So they work in your gut as sort of dying of the pathogens. Like xylitol in a way.

The essential oils are substances in the carrots that exhibit this antimicrobial potency: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 4.10643369

So my guess is that dates would have a similar effect as carrots.

[Kasper]

Out of my personal experiences I can tell I tolerate carrot fiber much better than orange fiber.
I don't know if this is caused by bacteria feeding on fiber, or inflammation caused by fiber (or something else).
It seems like many people don't react on orange fiber. This article suggest that (non-strained) orange juice is very good for your gut:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/ ... eight-loss
But again, this is not my personal experience. I would rather go for strained orange juice.