inulin, polydextrose, erythritol

[Mr. PC]

Sorry to make another fiber thread, although it's not really a 'fiber' thread.

Whereas water-soluble fibers tend to slow the movement of food, insoluble fibers tend to accelerate it.
Currently, they also label some poly-sugars as fibers, while they are actually not fibrous. (eg inulin (fructans) and some starches)
Inulin also evokes methane production (25-30% is utilized for energy).

I didn't want to reply to the thread, because I have a different question.

So recently I've had to take some anti-biotics. Also, I'm feeling like I have some gut related problems (allergies), and so for these 2 reasons I'm interested in improving the bacterial composition of my gut.

As I understand, the wai-take on this is that ingesting bacteria from egg yolks etc. will strengthen the natural 'probiotics' in the gut. However, if these are already weak, for example from antibiotics, this might not be so effective (I'm also, as always, a traveling guest in other peoples' houses, and don't want to eat raw eggs in front of them).

So I've been taking probiotics.

Anyhow, here's my specificity question.

Fibers like inulin and polydextrose are supposed to feed the 'good bacteria'. If I'm ingesting these while on antibiotics, is the risk of them feeding mostly pathogens significant? I know that inulin is not some magic food that can only be tasty to good bacteria while doing nothing for pathogens, but I think it generally feeds beneficial bacteria more than pathogenic. My idea is to take the anti-biotic, 2 hours later take the probiotic *with* inulin. (I have a chicory based coffee substitute. You know I've been a coffee addict my entire life, and this is my latest attempt at quitting. I know this makes me seem pathetically weak will in comparison to most people on this site). The fake coffee contains chicory, inulin, polydextrose, and erythritol (which to my understanding passes through the body without doing anything).

So short question,


How are the following substances helpful / harmful / neutral?
inulin
polydextrose
erythritol

[RRM]

the wai-take on this is that ingesting bacteria from egg yolks etc. will strengthen the natural 'probiotics' in the gut. However, if these are already weak, for example from antibiotics, this might not be so effective

Huh, why not?
Its actually the other way around: if your gut defense is already very strong, the bacteria hardly have any effect, other than keeping your defense up to par. If however, your defense is less strong, fighting bacteria will definitely make your defense stronger. Similarly to working out, you just need to find the right amount of trigger (exercise/bacteria)

Fibers like inulin and polydextrose are supposed to feed the 'good bacteria'.

You cannot judge bacteria on what food they eat; its not just 'good bacteria' that feed on them.
Taking probiotics is a simplistic approach.
The body is far more sophisticated than that.

How are the following substances helpful / harmful / neutral?
inulin
polydextrose
erythritol

First of all: Why do you need anti-biotics?

[Mr. PC]

Huh, why not?
Its actually the other way around: if your gut defense is already very strong, the bacteria hardly have any effect, other than keeping your defense up to par. If however, your defense is less strong, fighting bacteria will definitely make your defense stronger. Similarly to working out, you just need to find the right amount of trigger (exercise/bacteria)

But if your 'good bacteria' are weaker than the pathogens, wouldn't the pathogens gain the upper hand in this case? Why would egg bacteria favor our 'good bacteria' and not also strengthen the pathogens? And do bacteria really get stronger from 'fighting'? Maybe the bacteria become better at fighting the specific pathogen they're fighting... I really don't understand bacteria.

You cannot judge bacteria on what food they eat; its not just 'good bacteria' that feed on them.

Right, but I think the 'good' bacteria have a general tendency to eat these, whereas most pathogens tend toward other energy sources. Although yes, I am concerned about feeding pathogens, which is why I ask. But if I take the inulin *with* a probiotic, I'm putting more in favor of the 'good', right? I'm still not sure about polydextrose however.

Taking probiotics is a simplistic approach.
The body is far more sophisticated than that.

Right, I know our guts are very complex, and I think that ingested 'probiotics' aren't capable of binding long-term, but what I've read is that ingested probiotics help our natural bacteria. I've read one study about horizontal gene transfer happening between bacteria in rats taking yogurt, so maybe this is what's happening; most human studies show beneficial results from humans for up to 2 weeks after discontinuing consumption of probiotics, especially when taking anti-biotics, but not only. There's a lot of research showing beneficial results of taking probitiocs (in pill form with high CFU and pedigree bacteria strains. Not much research on things like sauerkraut, although it also seems to be good).

[Aytundra]

There's a lot of research showing beneficial results of taking probitiocs (in pill form with high CFU and pedigree bacteria strains. Not much research on things like sauerkraut, although it also seems to be good).

Companies have money to pay to promote and "publish" (market/sell) their human manufactured pills.
They might be biased.
Sauerkraut does not have human money to publish articles. The currency that these pickled vegetables hold are sunlight energy.
But if you look at another form of statistics.
Lots of humans pickle their food. (Not sure if it is for the preserve food theory, or for the probiotic theory, or both). But maybe it is for the tastebud theory, they just want something flavoured to eat.

[RRM]

But if your 'good bacteria' are weaker than the pathogens, wouldn't the pathogens gain the upper hand in this case?

In your gut there are over 400 different species of bacteria.
They need to be in balance.
Normally, they are kept in balance by your defense system, and by the diet that you eat.
If specific bacteria become too strong, we go for the nuclear option: anti-biotics.
Antiobiotics are like chemotherapy, they kill everything, and then we hope that while all the bacteria regroup and multiply,
proper balance will be restored. Though it may also give a head start to a pathogen, or one of the fungi / bactria normally kept in check.
The use of antiobiotics may, for example, often result in candida overgrowth.
Taking probiotics does not prevent candida.
Taking probiotics only gives a head start to the bacteria supplemented. Since the probiotics contents do not resemble yourgut flora, it can never restore your gut flora. It can only give a head start to some of them.

Why would egg bacteria favor our 'good bacteria' and not also strengthen the pathogens?

It is not like that.
It is like vaccination. One injects a small amount of a pathogen to train your body to fight them.
The same is true for salmonella and similar bacteria, as they are also considered pathogens.
Consuming raw egg yolks only trains your defense in fighting salmonella and similar bacteria.

I think the 'good' bacteria have a general tendency to eat these, whereas most pathogens tend toward other energy sources.

Unfortunately, that is not the case. There is no such thing as that good bacteria tend to feed on X, whereas pathogens tend to feed on Y.
It may only be true if you look at very specific bacteria / fungi, such as candida, compared to other specific bacteria / fungi.
Pathogens are only pathogens when they overgrow their competitors.
Normally, candida in your system is totally harmless.
It is only a pathogen in the case of candida overgrowth.
Taking antiobiotics may obliterate the target (or insufficiently), and may facilitate candida overgrowth, or some other pathogen.

if I take the inulin *with* a probiotic, I'm putting more in favor of the 'good', right?

It may also favor a pathogen.
That totally depends on who is the villain in your case, and what his direct competitors are.

What i have read is that ingested probiotics help our natural bacteria.

They are ALL natural. Candida is perfectly natural also.
Probiotics only give a head start to the bacteria in your supplement, not the ones that are not in your supplement.
Many 'good ones' are not included in the supplement.
So, it can definitely not restore your natural balance. Only your body can.

[Mr. PC]

In your gut there are over 400 different species of bacteria.
They need to be in balance.
Normally, they are kept in balance by your defense system, and by the diet that you eat.
If specific bacteria become too strong, we go for the nuclear option: anti-biotics.
Antiobiotics are like chemotherapy, they kill everything, and then we hope that while all the bacteria regroup and multiply,
proper balance will be restored. Though it may also give a head start to a pathogen, or one of the fungi / bactria normally kept in check.

By defense, do you mean specifically leukocytes? Or something else? Would like leukocytes/white blood cells target any bacteria that's growing out of balance? How would they know? As far as I understand, the immune system works by 'good guy/ bad guy' identification, but again, I don't have a deep understanding here, and maybe you mean something else by defense.

I agree that the black and white "good flora / bad flora" is an oversimplification, but I do think that e.g. certain for synthesize Biotin and vitamin K, metabolize bile acids, produce hormones, whereas certain bacteria are definitely pathogenic (candida, while harmless as small levels, never really helps us in any way, right?) Certain bacteria will weaken the gut walls (permeable gut) among other clearly negative things.

The use of antiobiotics may, for example, often result in candida overgrowth.
Taking probiotics does not prevent candida.
Taking probiotics only gives a head start to the bacteria supplemented. Since the probiotics contents do not resemble your gut flora, it can never restore your gut flora. It can only give a head start to some of them.

My understanding is that (certain research-driven) probiotic strains will consume pathogenic bacteria, increase the mucosal lining of the intestinal wall (which helps prevent certain 'pathogens' from sticking). It makes sense to me that bacteria which have developed with humans symbiotically, have been with humans for a long time, will have evolved to stick to a gut wall well-lined with mucous, whereas a bacteria that can't stick to the wall in that case is not "natural" / has evolved with us (I'm just speculating now).

If you look at these bacteria, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora ... inal_flora e.g. Bacteroides fragilis which have a 100% incidence in human intestines, we can be pretty certain they're 'natural'.

It is like vaccination. One injects a small amount of a pathogen to train your body to fight them.
The same is true for salmonella and similar bacteria, as they are also considered pathogens.
Consuming raw egg yolks only trains your defense in fighting salmonella and similar bacteria.

So would you say something like sauerkraut, which has countless strains and very high CFU of bacteria could help training your immune system? It should have a similar effect as egg yolk bacteria?

[Mr. PC]

Oops, I meant to add this,

"Prebiotics Modulate the Effects of Antibiotics on Gut Microbial Diversity and Functioning in Vitro"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4488797/

My understanding is that in this test the prebiotics helps prevent the antibiotics from unbalancing gut microbes, yes?

[RRM]

My understanding is that in this test the prebiotics helps prevent the antibiotics from unbalancing gut microbes, yes?

Actually, they state that:
"antibiotics often negated the beneficial effects of dietary supplementation, in some treatment combinations... ameliorated the effects of antibiotics".
Supplementation mostly had no positive impact, sometimes a negative impact (both inulin and pectin) and sometimes a positive impact (see: "Discussion").

[RRM]

By defense, do you mean specifically leukocytes?

Not, not specifically. I mean the whole arsenal at our disposal, including oxidative radicals, selective uptake etc.
Our defense is much more than our immune system. Our defense already starts with our epithelial cells, stomach acidity, enzymes, selective uptake, and so on.

whereas certain bacteria are definitely pathogenic (candida, while harmless as small levels, never really helps us in any way, right?)

I think it does, actually. I have never studied it, but as in the macro world, our microkosmos is riddled with symbiosis, and even parasites may benefit us.
We don't know 1% of what is going on exactly. We used to have a far more simplistic view about it, and the more we got to know, the more we found out about the benefits of about everything inside. Its like in the big world, everything has a function: if you kill the bees, a chain reaction will occur. If you kill the worms, disaster will strike. All organisms have a function. The same is true for our intestinal world.
And as in the real world, everything is about balance.

So would you say something like sauerkraut, which has countless strains and very high CFU of bacteria could help training your immune system? It should have a similar effect as egg yolk bacteria?

Sure. In as much as not washing your hands before eating a meal

[Mr. PC]

My understanding is that in this test the prebiotics helps prevent the antibiotics from unbalancing gut microbes, yes?

Actually, they state that:
"antibiotics often negated the beneficial effects of dietary supplementation, in some treatment combinations... ameliorated the effects of antibiotics".
Supplementation mostly had no positive impact, sometimes a negative impact (both inulin and pectin) and sometimes a positive impact (see: "Discussion").

I read through the discussion, but didn't see any examples of a negative impact for inulin (maybe I didn't understand something.) In the conclusion it says

In conclusion, addition of fermentable carbohydrates greatly affected the response of cultured communities to antibiotic treatments. Generally, the positive effects of fermentable fibre on bacterial growth and SCFA production were removed when antibiotics were applied. However, certain combinations of antibiotic and fermentable fibre were able to restore the bacterial community. Notably, inulin reduced the negative effects of ampicillin after 30 h, thus restoring metabolic function and taxonomic composition using prebiotics. This treatment combination suggests a potential role for prebiotics in restoring function during and after antibiotic treatment, which may have broader clinical impacts.

So it seems that inulin in general helps lessen the effects of antibiotics.

Not, not specifically. I mean the whole arsenal at our disposal, including oxidative radicals, selective uptake etc.
Our defense is much more than our immune system. Our defense already starts with our epithelial cells, stomach acidity, enzymes, selective uptake, and so on.

Right, I'm just trying to figure out which exactly would be strengthened fighting bacteria in an eggyolk (or I guess likewise with sauerkraut, or not washing your hands). But now we're going way off topic.

I think it does, actually. I have never studied it, but as in the macro world, our microkosmos is riddled with symbiosis, and even parasites may benefit us.
We don't know 1% of what is going on exactly. We used to have a far more simplistic view about it, and the more we got to know, the more we found out about the benefits of about everything inside. Its like in the big world, everything has a function: if you kill the bees, a chain reaction will occur. If you kill the worms, disaster will strike. All organisms have a function. The same is true for our intestinal world.
And as in the real world, everything is about balance.

Ok, that helps. But certain 'balances' will be better than others, right?

We've never had an issue e.g. flies are dying off; we know that they can be replaced in the ecosystem, and do more harm than good. Scientists are considering eliminating / reducing mosquitoes, because while they fill a role in the ecosystem, their spreading of malaria makes it worth it to get rid of them.

So maybe I was wrong in my mindset about getting rid of 'pathogens' and building up certain bacteria as much as possible, it could still make sense to strive for a certain ratio / balance. And then how do we achieve that ideal balance?

[Mr. PC]

Even more off-topic... I thought that only the adaptive immune system can be trained, e.g. 'memory cells' which create specific anti-bodies. Maybe I'm wrong about that (which is why babies exposed to germs would have stronger immune systems).

In that case, should I just make a point of exposing myself to germs regularly?

But then... there's a tendency for teachers to always get sick, because they're always around germy children... shouldn't the teachers just develop stronger immune systems in that case and become healthier?

I'm always reading how the immune system is closely tied to the gut flora, but again, don't really understand it.

[Oscar]

Becoming sick means the immune system is active, but isn't able to cope with the threat under normal conditions, and thus changes things (like raising temperature) to create a more helpful environment. There are several factors that play a role in the state of the immune system, and just exposure to harmful external threats doesn't ensure an optimally functional system. For example, if the immune system is already overworked because it needs to battle harmful substances which are consumed through food, it has less resources available to battle extra threats.

[RRM]

I read through the discussion, but didn't see any examples of a negative impact for inulin

"Bacteroides declined with gentamicin in cultures supplemented with inulin, and with ampicillin in cultures supplemented with pectin"

So it seems that inulin in general helps lessen the effects of antibiotics.

If you are wearing pink glasses, yes.

I'm just trying to figure out which exactly would be strengthened fighting bacteria in an eggyolk

Your defense against salmonella would be strengthened.
What this defense comprises? I don't know. I would have to look it up.

But certain 'balances' will be better than others, right?

Your optimal balance is best for you.
There is a chance that extra inulin might hinder your recovery, or maybe not.
Your optimal balance is too complicated for us to understand, let alone manipulate it properly.
There is one expert though: your body.

flies are dying off; we know that they can be replaced in the ecosystem, and do more harm than good.

Flies doing more harm than good?
To the ecosystem? Or to us/you?
Flies actually help spreading disease, training our defense (as in vaccination). Before we had vaccination, we had flies.
The cleaner our environment, the weaker our defense.
Children raised in sterile environments are more prone to developing asthma, allergies etc.

how do we achieve that ideal balance?

We cannot. Your body can.

[Mr. PC]

Contrary to the expectation of resistance to both antibiotics, Bacteroides declined with gentamicin in cultures supplemented with inulin, and with ampicillin in cultures supplemented with pectin (although growth with ampicillin had recovered by 30 h).

Maybe I'm understanding this wrong. Bacteroides declined with gentamicin in cultures supplemented with inulin... moreso than with gentamicin alone? My understanding was that they declined because of the antibiotic, and likely would have declined moreso without inulin, however the prediction was that inulin would have stopped the bacteroides from declining altogether, and failed to do so.

[RRM]

Yes, the reference is not relative, but rather absolute.
They did not expect a decline in Bacteroides, because of 2 factors:
1) the expected resistance to both antibiotics
2) the inulin / pectin supplement

So, they thought that, since their resistance to those antibiotics, the Bacteroides should stand a great chance due to the inulin / pectin supplement; a small threat plus a big help should result in a plus rather than a minus.
The resistance to these antibiotics is well documented. Therefore, the inulin / pectin should have resulted in a net growth rather than decline (that was the expectation)