"Ketogenic" metabolism

YouTube · Post by **RRM** » Sat 27 Jan 2007 19:54

What is ketosis, actually? (I should have done this much earlier)

Wikipedia wrote:... a stage in metabolism occurring when the liver converts fat into fatty acids and ketone bodies which can be used by the body for energy.
...
If the diet is changed from a highly glycemic diet to a diet that does not substantially contribute to blood glucose, the body goes through a set of stages to enter ketosis
...
Most medical resources regard ketosis as a pathological state associated with chronic starvation. ... Deliberately induced ketosis through a low-carbohydrate diet has been used to treat medical conditions although most such treatments remain controversial

Yes, I believe that in a state of starvation, aging is slowed down (as everything is).
But, if you dont starve, how much are you 'in ketosis'? as its a situation you need to induce. Your diet needs to be so that it "does not substantially contribute to blood glucose"
Is that what a low carb, high protein diet does?

That depends on how much fat and how much protein is consumed.
The reason:
Under these glucose-limited circumstances, amino acids that are both ketogenic and glucogenic, are converted into glucose, so that not just methionine, cysteine, valine, threonine, alanine, aspartic acid, glutamic acid, glycine, histidine, proline, serine, and arginine, but also phenylalanine, tyrosine, isoleucine, and tryptophane will be converted into glucose. Only leucine and lysine will then be converted into ketone bodies.
This means that only 2 out of 18 amino acids (11%) will get converted into ketone bodies, and 16 out of 18 in glucose. (89%)
The protein in your diet will therefore contribute A LOT of glucose.
A high protein diet alone will therefore not induce ketosis. You need a lot of dietary fat, and (as well as little carbs) little protein...

van · Post by **van** » Sat 27 Jan 2007 20:57

All the descriptions of converting to a ketogenic diet talk about how in the beginning there is a lack of enenery. Read Steffason's account for a detailed description of how his men suffered in the beginning. Hence, I point out it is easy for one to assume things without direct experimentation. The mind is very quick to fill in the blanks.

MariaLinn · Post by **MariaLinn** » Sun 27 Apr 2008 16:44

This was a very interesting debate indeed.

I know the thread is old but i just felt, as a former keto-eater, that I had to add someting that really convinced me that keto is very unhealthy - if anyone have the slightest thought about wanting to go keto.

Two years ago me and my two health-freak-friends decided we would try keto. And since we were all three calorie-counting pros we made sure not to eat less calories than we needed as well as made sure we had all the essential vitamins and minerals + even bought ketosticks to pee on to make sure. But only 1-2 weeks after starting the keto eating we noticed we were all three starting to loose hair. I therefore stopped my keto eating at week 3, but my friends continued for some time but their hair never grew back while on keto, just came thinner, one of them stopped after 1 month and the other shortly after. As they went back to their original way of eating, as before keto, their and my hair eventually grew thick again.

So this made me wonder and i started searching the net and was suprised to find alot of forum board discussions talking about and warning about this very issue. Now this was a couple of years ago but from what I remember the reason for why alot of people lose hair on keto is because of some hormone or cortisol level that gets raised and causes a stress-like state in the body, regardless of if you eat enough calories there is a constant starvationmode in the body, wich you talked about in this tread, wich seems to be causing this as I understand.

If ketofood makes hair fall out then how the h*ll can it be healthy? No way. Hair and skin are two of our best warningsigns for when we eat the wrong way, to me thats more proof than anyting and we should learn to listen to theese signs and not to the latest creators of new food trends and such.

YouTube · Post by **RRM** » Tue 29 Apr 2008 19:44

Thank you MariaLinn. I guess there must have been studies done regarding the level of cortisol during ketosis. It IS a stress hormone indeed, and a destructive one (also affects lshort and long term bone health).

Post by **Oscar** » Thu 01 May 2008 12:57

Thanks for the info.

johndela1 · Post by **johndela1** » Thu 01 May 2008 14:35

Just wanted to point something out. I read here a description of low carb has high protein. Many (maybe most) low carbers do not eat high protein but rather high fat

MariaLinn · Post by **MariaLinn** » Sun 04 May 2008 12:20

Glad to share

If my lil hair-horrorstory can 'cure' just one ketowannabe I can rest happily in my grave
The bone health thing sounds almost scaryer tho...

johndela1 wrote:Just wanted to point something out. I read here a description of low carb has high protein. Many (maybe most) low carbers do not eat high protein but rather high fat

Exactly. The high-protein-low-carb-one is not keto at all

But on the other hand the high-protein-one makes no sense at all. Why use theese large amounts of proteins a day to keep your bloodsugar up (and fill upp glycogen) when you can use carbs, and with that also get a bigger variety of nutrients and not having to rob a bank just to afford buying a whole cow every three days. And then there is also a major healthissue with this way of eating... when we have to use the bathroom right after them

johndela1 · Post by **johndela1** » Tue 06 May 2008 17:57

not what I meant...

I think high protein diets are bad and favor high fat diets. I think fat is a great fuel source much better fuel than protein.

MariaLinn · Post by **MariaLinn** » Wed 07 May 2008 14:16

johndela1 wrote:not what I meant...

I think high protein diets are bad and favor high fat diets. I think fat is a great fuel source much better fuel than protein.

Yes thats my opinion too. But only as long as you eat sufficient carbs to keep you from ketosis and too low bloodsugar because otherwise you ll mess up your hormones.

But maybe you were talking about a diet with sufficient carb intake, and in that case I apologize for misstaking you for a ketopreacher

fictor · Post by **fictor** » Wed 28 May 2008 19:53

What exactly is sufficient carbs? How little carbs can one eat before going into ketosis? I am doing an experiment with the primal diet (as mentioned in another thread), and I just wanted to make sure I consume enough carbs. I mean, up to 6 glasses of veggie juice, a few tea spoons of honey, one fruit, several avocadoes and tomatoes a day, that does not sound like a typical keto-diet to me, am I right here?

johndela1 · Post by **johndela1** » Thu 29 May 2008 00:53

from what I have read it seems like you would really have to avoid all carbs to become ketogenic

If you look at the ketogenic diets that some children with epilepsy are treated with they are extreme almost 0 carbs.

MariaLinn · Post by **MariaLinn** » Thu 12 Jun 2008 21:21

fictor wrote:What exactly is sufficient carbs? How little carbs can one eat before going into ketosis? I am doing an experiment with the primal diet (as mentioned in another thread), and I just wanted to make sure I consume enough carbs. I mean, up to 6 glasses of veggie juice, a few tea spoons of honey, one fruit, several avocadoes and tomatoes a day, that does not sound like a typical keto-diet to me, am I right here?

No that does not sound keto to me. Sufficient carbs is the ammount you need daily before your brain starts to get foggy and you want to kill everyone around.

Most people I know about experience the entering-ketosis-phase as quite painful with massive headaches at first too. Around 10-20 grams of carbs a day can be enough as a keto diet if you are very active.

Jodiat · Post by **Jodiat** » Thu 05 Nov 2009 02:11

God that took more then 2 hours to read and hey at least im sleepy now.

Ow lol I started laughing when RRM said he would still be the same nobody he is now!

As it happens Ive tried low carb, low protein high fat and also high fat, high protein, ZERO carb diets.

My results was quite different in body composition. I became very big and muscular on high protein and no carbs, but a cranky fucker too. Also I was constipated and had the worse acne in my life.

The high fat lower protein was similar - I was a cranky fucker and didnt have a willingness to move about much. My acne was much more controlled tho but never 100% clear. I was also less muscular.

Both diets I have given up on due to one thing. I craved sugar and it taught me balance is the key.

martianwarrior · Post by **martianwarrior** » Sat 12 Dec 2009 17:14

my my... what an interesting and educational read that was.

one thing that i'm surprised wasn't mentioned, or perhaps i missed, was the fact that you would eventually become vitamin and nutrient deficient on the keto diet.

it's always said that due to poor soil, pollution etc. foods are not as high quality as they used to be. wai diet takes care of that easily by taking in close to 5lbs of fruit a day. who knows, maybe if the soil quality today resembled that of 10,000+ years ago, we could eat wai diet and only take in 2.5lbs of fruit a day. more spaced out, taking in less at one time, sipping less frequently.

that's my favorite aspect of wai diet, it's a big middle finger to the supplement industry and the globalist groups who reintroduced pesticides(poisons) after they were banned. those who honor life and seek the truth will always find a way to overcome and shall be rewarded for doing so. those who remain open and honest with themselves in regards to health, will more than likely eventually find their way to the wai diet.

YouTube · Post by **RRM** » Sat 12 Dec 2009 18:28

martianwarrior wrote:it's always said that due to poor soil, pollution etc. foods are not as high quality as they used to be. wai diet takes care of that easily by taking in close to 5lbs of fruit a day.

I guess that nature already had taken care of that.
I think that nature had already calculated on a less than optimal food intake.
Because back in the days lots of times we must have settled for not yet fully ripened fruits,
or extremely overripe fruits, both supplying us with less nutrients,
or simply having to eat less-edible plant foods occasionally.

who knows, maybe if the soil quality today resembled that of 10,000+ years ago, we could eat wai diet and only take in 2.5lbs of fruit a day.

But then it would not supply us with sufficient energy,
and we would need to add a lot of extra sugar.