I think what you are struggling with understanding is that while fasting, your body is using energy in a certain way. That energy did not come from no where, it came from diet, 100%, not from your body. Your body is where it currently extracts the energy, that is not where it came from. That process is an initial trait of starvation, and is marked by an adequate level of ketosis. The same thing happens to a lesser degree on a ketogenic diet, when an adequate level of ketosis is observed. You extract part of your energy needs from your body, even while you are consuming dietary energy, as long as you stay within ketogenic diet guidelines (don't get kicked out of ketosis and that sort of thing). That is why both fasting and ketogenic diets, evoke the ketosis/autophagy starvation processes, even though one does not replace that energy tank (bodily energy stores) and the other one, ketogenic diet, can.
You have a black/white, absolutist view of what energy is. Not all organs can utilize the same type of fuel (ketones), so not all ketone-fuel from dietary energy can fully satisfy the bodies energy needs, even if you look at raw numbers of "energy" on a piece of paper and see that it should work, raw "numbers" are not the full picture, for the factors, reasons, outlined above. The simple way to recognize this is that if a ketogenic diet fully satiated the body with energy, the body would not need to remain in ketosis in order to spare glucose and protein. Basically, the body can't survive indefinitely without recycling/autophagy/ketone activity on a ketogenic diet, but since we know the body adapts to survive on a ketogenic diet, we know that those things happen. Those "things" are the processes also invoked by initial starvation, hence starvation "mode" is evoked.
if you truly don't understand after having it explained about 5 times to you, then you must not want to understand, so why keep playing the part of asking to understand, when you're really just unhappy with the explanation? just say you don't agree, you don't have to keep fishing for a point when there is none to be made
ketogenic diet
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panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet
That ample amount of energy will eventually be utilized. Sooner or later.panacea wrote:The body can be in starvation mode even if it consumes ample amounts of energy, because it can't always utilize all of that dietary energy to fulfill its needs without first converting it to bodily energy storesRRM wrote:the phrase "starvation mode" is a controlled set of conditions in which less energy is consumed than utilised, for a controlled period of time.panacea wrote:Ketogenic diets allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7
It will be an energy excess at some point. And if it will never be an energy excess, you will always be in a state of energy deficit, which means losing weight 24/7.
For simplicity, say we need 2400 kcal per day.
Say we need 100 kcal per hour.
If you want to be in starvation mode for all 24 hours of one day, the total amount of energy entering the bloodstream (during those 24 hours) at least needs to be lower than 2400 kcal in total. And the intake of that food also needs to be spread out throughout those 24 hours very evenly.
If in total 2400 kcal or more is entering the bloodstream during those 24 hours, you cannot possibly have been in starvation mode for all those 24 hours.
If you consume less than 2400 kcal in 24 hours, you will lose weight.
And if you do that 24/7 (meaning all 7 times 24 hours of the week), you will continue to lose weight every day.
A diet on which you continuously lose weight is not sustainable.
So, you HAVE to have 2400 kcal in energy entering your blood in each 24 hours.
But if you do that, you cannot possibly be in starvation mode 24/7.
So, you cannot be in starvation mode 24/7 and not lose weight every day.
If you are in starvation mode every hour of every day, you will continue to lose weight every day.
And that is not sustainable.
Additionally, we also need sleep.
This makes it even more obvious.
Say we need 8 hours sleep per night, during which no food is consumed.
That means you need to consume 2400 kcal in 16 hours, in order not to lose weight every day.
So, you will be consuming 150 kcal per hour on average, while you need only 100 kcal per hour (on average) for energy utilisation.
This means that during those 16 hours, you will have ample energy at your disposal.
Some hours you will eat more food than in other hours, which makes those former hours even more energy rich.
The overall picture emerging from this is very clear:
You cannot be in starvation mode 24/7 and not lose weight every day.
In order to create a starvation mode during some hours, you need to compensate for that lack of energy in some other hours.
So, by definition, any magnitude of starvation mode has to be compensated for, by some energy excess somewhere.
Say "0" is not losing weight.
"+" is gaining weight.
Any energy deficit is a minus ("-")
In starvation mode there is a deficit, a minus.
You cannot have 24 hours of minusses, and when you all add them up, "0" is the end result.
That is simply not possible.
Minus plus minus plus minus will always be minus.
"0" is either the end result of a lot of "0"s added all up,
or some "-" plus some "+" (equally great in total)
Do you agree that only an energy deficit (a "-") can bring you into starvation mode?
And that eventually any "-" needs to be compensated for by a "+" if you do not want to lose weight?
Re: ketogenic diet
if you eat a balanced diet for your caloric needs (some days eating less than you need, some days eating more, as is normal) that energy surplus from the days you eat more are balanced by the days you eat less, yet while on a ketogenic diet, you are still in starvation mode on both days.
even if you bulk up on body fat, what you said is not necessarily true that the excess energy will "eventually" be used, as you might die of old age with relatively more body fat than you had at age 40, for example. In the normal case, you might use EXCESS stored energy like in body fat in periods that you are exercising, or just being more active than usual, balancing the excess energy intake you had on days you didn't exercise as much. on a ketogenic diet, you don't have to eat as much energy to sustain exercise because you are already using much of the body fat fuel tank, which is stored from previous days.
and you are wrong about starvation mode. you are talking about fasting or how to lose weight 24/7, that is not starvation mode 24/7. starvation mode is evoking ketosis, autophagy, and protein/glucose sparing and other bodily adaptations like the in the initial stages of starvation (fasting). you can gain or lose weight in starvation mode on a ketogenic diet, but typically people normalize their weight as appetite is naturally under control. In the long run (not looking at every hour) people tend to lose some weight on a ketogenic diet, this obviously doesnt happen as fast (every hour) as fasting but it's arguably a healthier way to lose weight (less danger/side effects). Losing weight is not synonymous with initial starvation adaptations, losing weight is a typical end result of fasting or starvation, but you can get the same benefits of initial starvation mode using a ketogenic diet, without necessarily losing weight each day. I've outlined again and again that a ketogenic diet's energy intake does not mean that autophagy or ketosis or other initial starvation adaptions stop, even if you aren't losing weight.
"You cannot be in starvation mode 24/7 and not lose weight every day."
Completely false
even if you bulk up on body fat, what you said is not necessarily true that the excess energy will "eventually" be used, as you might die of old age with relatively more body fat than you had at age 40, for example. In the normal case, you might use EXCESS stored energy like in body fat in periods that you are exercising, or just being more active than usual, balancing the excess energy intake you had on days you didn't exercise as much. on a ketogenic diet, you don't have to eat as much energy to sustain exercise because you are already using much of the body fat fuel tank, which is stored from previous days.
and you are wrong about starvation mode. you are talking about fasting or how to lose weight 24/7, that is not starvation mode 24/7. starvation mode is evoking ketosis, autophagy, and protein/glucose sparing and other bodily adaptations like the in the initial stages of starvation (fasting). you can gain or lose weight in starvation mode on a ketogenic diet, but typically people normalize their weight as appetite is naturally under control. In the long run (not looking at every hour) people tend to lose some weight on a ketogenic diet, this obviously doesnt happen as fast (every hour) as fasting but it's arguably a healthier way to lose weight (less danger/side effects). Losing weight is not synonymous with initial starvation adaptations, losing weight is a typical end result of fasting or starvation, but you can get the same benefits of initial starvation mode using a ketogenic diet, without necessarily losing weight each day. I've outlined again and again that a ketogenic diet's energy intake does not mean that autophagy or ketosis or other initial starvation adaptions stop, even if you aren't losing weight.
"You cannot be in starvation mode 24/7 and not lose weight every day."
Completely false
Re: ketogenic diet
True.panacea wrote:if you eat a balanced diet for your caloric needs (some days eating less than you need, some days eating more, as is normal) that energy surplus from the days you eat more are balanced by the days you eat less
And this is even different within the day; you will bulk up right after a meal, and after a while, when the influx of nutrients into the bloodstream trickles down to less the amount of the energy utilized, you will tone down.
Usually, with 3 big meals a day, you will bulk up on nutrients right after each meal, and after a while start toning down until the next meal.
"Starvation mode" is toning down big time.
So, during the day you will gain weight (nutrients, due to each meal), and lose weight (due to energy utilisation).
In every person bodyfat is used for energy, particularly when consuming less energy than utilized.on a ketogenic diet, you don't have to eat as much energy to sustain exercise because you are already using much of the body fat fuel tank, which is stored from previous days.
In every person exercise evokes the utilization of extra body fat. The difference is that in ketosis, more ketones are used instead of muscle protein. But the result is exactly the same: the loss of those nutrients (for energy). The loss of their weight (ketones or protein, or both).
Using stored bodyfat, you are eating in on your spare energy, resulting in weight loss.
If that bodyfat has been stored in previous days, you have been bulking up on nutrients in those previous days, which is the opposite of starvation mode.
When there is a net utilisation of bodyfat, you are toning down. When the net loss of nutrients (bodyfat, glycogen, muscle protein) is very big, it is starvation mode.
When you use stored energy, like bodyfat or glycogen, these nutrients get utilized for energy.
This means that they get oxidized to the point that nothing but carbondioxide (from the carbon backbone of each macronutrient) and water (the oxidized form of hydrogen) remains.
So, stored nutrients (bodyfat, glycogen, protein, also as damaged organelles) get reduced to carbon dioxide and water (expelled from the body).
Thus nutrients (with mass) are totally eliminated (no mass).
So, utilizing energy results in a loss of mass (weight).
Using ketones for energy results in weight loss (the loss of their weight), which needs to be compensated for by bulking up.
Exactly.starvation mode is evoking ketosis, autophagy,
And what happens?
These ketones and damaged organelles are used for energy.
They vanish (as carbon dioxide and water; exhaled and excreted)
So, this starvation mode results in weightloss, because their loss (the utilized nutrients) is not compensated for by taking in extra nutrients.
Thus, by definition, this starvation mode is not sustainable, as it needs to be compensated for by bulking up (the opposite of starvation mode) at some point.
It is not about stopping ALL autophagy or ALL use of ketone bodies. It is about the net result.I've outlined again and again that a ketogenic diet's energy intake does not mean that autophagy or ketosis or other initial starvation adaptions stop, even if you aren't losing weight.
The very moment that you store more new bodyfat than is utilized for energy, you are gaining net bodyweight, which is the opposite of starvation mode.
Gaining weight = the opposite of starvation mode.
Gaining weight can only happen when more nutrients enter the body than the amount of nutrients utilized.
Ketones are derived from nutrients.
Damaged organelles are made of nutrients.
Using them for energy (ketosis and autophagy) results in a loss of their weight (the weight of the utilized nutrients)
So, in starvation mode, you always lose weight.
There is no net utilization of ketones from bodyfat if there is no net energy deficit.
Total bodyfat only goes down when you need the energy that they contain; when the influx of nutrients is insufficient to sustain all cells in your body.
Re: ketogenic diet
Please explain how you can have an energy surplus on some days and still be in starvation mode on exactly the same days.panacea wrote:... some days eating less than you need, some days eating more ... energy surplus from the days you eat more ... while on a ketogenic diet, you are still in starvation mode on both days.
Because you wrote:
When there is an energy surplus, the body is satiated with energy.panacea wrote:The simple way to recognize this is that if a ketogenic diet fully satiated the body with energy, the body would not need to remain in ketosis in order to spare glucose and protein.
Energy surplus = the opposite of starvation mode
Energy surplus means that more bodyfat (and glycogen) is stored than utilized.
How is that starvation mode?
Re: ketogenic diet
Do you think that the complete use of damaged organelles for energy (autophagy) does not result in the loss of their initial weight?
Re: ketogenic diet
Maybe this is what you mean? :
"A lack of dietary derived glucose (carbs in general), regardless of whether accompanied with ample (and compensatory) dietary fat is what constitutes a starvation mode".
"A lack of dietary derived glucose (carbs in general), regardless of whether accompanied with ample (and compensatory) dietary fat is what constitutes a starvation mode".
Re: ketogenic diet
"Please explain how you can have an energy surplus on some days and still be in starvation mode on exactly the same days."
Only on a ketogenic diet with very low carb/0 carb energy does this happen
To make it simpler, imagine you consume 0 carbs for a day, and ample amounts of fat for energy and a low to moderate amount of protein
This fat, along with ample body fat, can supply much of your energy needs, preventing you from losing weight as you bulk up on things like body fat, or muscle mass (depending on various factors). Even though the caloric intake of this fat/protein combo may exceed your daily caloric requirement, you cannot get 100% of your daily caloric requirement from normal ketogenic amounts of dietary fat/protein energy. Some of that daily energy has to come from glucose which you can't 100% create from a normal amount of dietary fat and low to moderate amount of protein (if you did, you would not be in ketosis any longer). Your body has to go into or stay in a glucose sparing state, recycling as much of it as it can that it already has or that it finds, which is an initial starvation trait and also associated with evoking autophagy, since some cells in your body will not be satisfied with enough energy from the lack of glucose-fuel if they require glucose-fuel, they will (as a collective) sustain themselves in part by autophagy (by the direct association of ketone levels and autophagy activity in studies) and in part by the low amounts of glucose the body holds on to.
So even though you may lose cellular weight by autophagy, you may also gain weight by various other methods from ingesting ample ketogenic energy (fat/protein).
Of course, significantly in between meals, autophagy ramps up even more on a ketogenic diet, as then even protein energy is more lacking, and body fat utilization will also increase, increasing autophagy evoked by ketones.
Ketosis, autophagy, and glucose/protein sparing are all initial starvation traits. These traits all express themselves on a ketogenic diet as well, 24/7. Therefore, the expression of initial starvation traits, whether by fasting or malnutrition, are also present in a ketogenic diet 24/7.
"Expression of initial starvation traits" = starvation mode
You keep rehashing the old "all energy is equal, any energy coming into the body that is greater than the caloric energy required that timeframe equals an energy surplus and it's impossible to lose weight or be in starvation mode". OK, so I encourage you to shock your body with a bunch of electricity and show me how that prevents you from losing weight or going into starvation mode (when that's all you do), since in your mind all energy is exactly the same and all parts of your body can use that energy no matter where it comes from or what form it is in.
""Maybe this is what you mean? :A lack of dietary derived glucose (carbs in general), regardless of whether accompanied with ample (and compensatory) dietary fat is what constitutes a starvation mode"."
No that is not even close to what I mean. What I mean is explained above and in about 5 other posts. Ketosis is what causes a starvation mode. Ketosis evokes autophagy, ketosis evokes glucose/protein sparing, ketosis evokes ketone activity. What constitutes starvation mode is the initial traits of starvation, which are present alongside ketosis by default, whether that be fasting ketosis or malnutrition ketosis or severely caloric restricted diets (a form of ketogenic diets) or typical ketogenic diets. Nutritional ketogenic diets allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7 indefinitely, in other words, they allow you have those initial starvation processes expressed 24/7, whereas malnutrition, fasting, or severely caloric restricted diets do not allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7 indefinitely.
Only on a ketogenic diet with very low carb/0 carb energy does this happen
To make it simpler, imagine you consume 0 carbs for a day, and ample amounts of fat for energy and a low to moderate amount of protein
This fat, along with ample body fat, can supply much of your energy needs, preventing you from losing weight as you bulk up on things like body fat, or muscle mass (depending on various factors). Even though the caloric intake of this fat/protein combo may exceed your daily caloric requirement, you cannot get 100% of your daily caloric requirement from normal ketogenic amounts of dietary fat/protein energy. Some of that daily energy has to come from glucose which you can't 100% create from a normal amount of dietary fat and low to moderate amount of protein (if you did, you would not be in ketosis any longer). Your body has to go into or stay in a glucose sparing state, recycling as much of it as it can that it already has or that it finds, which is an initial starvation trait and also associated with evoking autophagy, since some cells in your body will not be satisfied with enough energy from the lack of glucose-fuel if they require glucose-fuel, they will (as a collective) sustain themselves in part by autophagy (by the direct association of ketone levels and autophagy activity in studies) and in part by the low amounts of glucose the body holds on to.
So even though you may lose cellular weight by autophagy, you may also gain weight by various other methods from ingesting ample ketogenic energy (fat/protein).
Of course, significantly in between meals, autophagy ramps up even more on a ketogenic diet, as then even protein energy is more lacking, and body fat utilization will also increase, increasing autophagy evoked by ketones.
Ketosis, autophagy, and glucose/protein sparing are all initial starvation traits. These traits all express themselves on a ketogenic diet as well, 24/7. Therefore, the expression of initial starvation traits, whether by fasting or malnutrition, are also present in a ketogenic diet 24/7.
"Expression of initial starvation traits" = starvation mode
You keep rehashing the old "all energy is equal, any energy coming into the body that is greater than the caloric energy required that timeframe equals an energy surplus and it's impossible to lose weight or be in starvation mode". OK, so I encourage you to shock your body with a bunch of electricity and show me how that prevents you from losing weight or going into starvation mode (when that's all you do), since in your mind all energy is exactly the same and all parts of your body can use that energy no matter where it comes from or what form it is in.
""Maybe this is what you mean? :A lack of dietary derived glucose (carbs in general), regardless of whether accompanied with ample (and compensatory) dietary fat is what constitutes a starvation mode"."
No that is not even close to what I mean. What I mean is explained above and in about 5 other posts. Ketosis is what causes a starvation mode. Ketosis evokes autophagy, ketosis evokes glucose/protein sparing, ketosis evokes ketone activity. What constitutes starvation mode is the initial traits of starvation, which are present alongside ketosis by default, whether that be fasting ketosis or malnutrition ketosis or severely caloric restricted diets (a form of ketogenic diets) or typical ketogenic diets. Nutritional ketogenic diets allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7 indefinitely, in other words, they allow you have those initial starvation processes expressed 24/7, whereas malnutrition, fasting, or severely caloric restricted diets do not allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7 indefinitely.
Re: ketogenic diet
Aha, i think i finally got your way of reasoning...
Normally (generally accepted), "the body in starvation mode" is the set of conditions in which a severe lack of energy (starvation) occurs for the body as a whole; the mode of starvation, which results in weightloss and ketosis, and on cellular level in autophagy.
But you have come up with a different definition: "a mode in which ketosis and autophagy occur". The essential difference is that your definition is a mix of macro (ketosis) and cellular phenomena (autophagy). When autophagy occurs in a cell, you may consider this cell in "starvation mode". But if in some cells in your body autophagy occurs, you cannot say that the entire body is in starvation mode. For that, you need to look at the availability of nutrients in the blood (ready to feed the entire body)
When you claim that the body can be in starvation mode 24/7, you actually mean to say that autophagy may occur in some cells 24/7 (not the same cells all the time). But that does not mean that you can claim that the "body may be in starvation mode 24/7".
It is simply untrue, given the amount of energy available in the blood.
Even on a SAD diet, there is always (24/7) some autophagy going on in some cells of people who do everything wrong. But that does not mean that their bodies are in starvation mode at any point in time. Starvation mode at cellular level does not translate to starvation mode of the body as a whole.
Your way of using the starvation mode phrase is therefore misleading.
It is not applicable to the entire body, but solely on cellular level, unless the entire body does experience a severe lack of energy. But that state is not sustainable, of course. Some cells in your body being temporarily in starvation mode is very normal and sustainable though, and happens 24/7, indeed. In ketosis, the number of cells in starvation mode is elevated (which does not necessarily mean that the body is in starvation mode, depending on the energy available in the blood)
Ketosis and autophagy are traits of starvation, but they do not necessarily represent the body being in starvation mode.
Resveratrol, for example, may evoke autophagy in specific cells (entering these cells in "starvation mode"), without the body being in starvation mode, at all.
Physical exercise evokes autophagy in specific cells, whereas the glycogen stores may be full, and therefore the body is not in starvation mode, at all.
Consuming little sugars and much fat may also evoke ketosis (and ketones evoke autophagy-like effects in some cells), but that may also come with ample dietary fat, and therefore the body is not in starvation mode.
You cannot possibly think that the entire body is in 'starvation mode' when some autophagy is evoked by consuming resveratrol, or through exercise with ample fuel in the glycogen depots. Equally so, the body is not in starvation mode when gaining weight on a ketogenic diet. Only individual cells will, but that is always the case.
Ketosis is just a state in which mostly ketones instead of glucogenic bodies are used for energy. Ketones may (like resveratrol) evoke autophagy-like responses in specific cells.
It is just a shift in fuel sources, with ketones having specific properties.
An adaptation instead of starvation.
So, please do not use the phrase starvation mode whenever the body is in ketosis. It is misleading and incorrect.
You must make a distinction between effects on cellular level and effects on macro level.
But on macro level (the body), no, it is the other way around: starvation mode eventually causes ketosis.
If you want to teach people about ketosis, you need to get the terminolgy right for the sake of credibility.
The influence of ketones is interesting enough.
Normally (generally accepted), "the body in starvation mode" is the set of conditions in which a severe lack of energy (starvation) occurs for the body as a whole; the mode of starvation, which results in weightloss and ketosis, and on cellular level in autophagy.
But you have come up with a different definition: "a mode in which ketosis and autophagy occur". The essential difference is that your definition is a mix of macro (ketosis) and cellular phenomena (autophagy). When autophagy occurs in a cell, you may consider this cell in "starvation mode". But if in some cells in your body autophagy occurs, you cannot say that the entire body is in starvation mode. For that, you need to look at the availability of nutrients in the blood (ready to feed the entire body)
When you claim that the body can be in starvation mode 24/7, you actually mean to say that autophagy may occur in some cells 24/7 (not the same cells all the time). But that does not mean that you can claim that the "body may be in starvation mode 24/7".
It is simply untrue, given the amount of energy available in the blood.
Even on a SAD diet, there is always (24/7) some autophagy going on in some cells of people who do everything wrong. But that does not mean that their bodies are in starvation mode at any point in time. Starvation mode at cellular level does not translate to starvation mode of the body as a whole.
Your way of using the starvation mode phrase is therefore misleading.
It is not applicable to the entire body, but solely on cellular level, unless the entire body does experience a severe lack of energy. But that state is not sustainable, of course. Some cells in your body being temporarily in starvation mode is very normal and sustainable though, and happens 24/7, indeed. In ketosis, the number of cells in starvation mode is elevated (which does not necessarily mean that the body is in starvation mode, depending on the energy available in the blood)
On a cellular level, yes."Expression of initial starvation traits" = starvation mode
Ketosis and autophagy are traits of starvation, but they do not necessarily represent the body being in starvation mode.
Resveratrol, for example, may evoke autophagy in specific cells (entering these cells in "starvation mode"), without the body being in starvation mode, at all.
Physical exercise evokes autophagy in specific cells, whereas the glycogen stores may be full, and therefore the body is not in starvation mode, at all.
Consuming little sugars and much fat may also evoke ketosis (and ketones evoke autophagy-like effects in some cells), but that may also come with ample dietary fat, and therefore the body is not in starvation mode.
You cannot possibly think that the entire body is in 'starvation mode' when some autophagy is evoked by consuming resveratrol, or through exercise with ample fuel in the glycogen depots. Equally so, the body is not in starvation mode when gaining weight on a ketogenic diet. Only individual cells will, but that is always the case.
Ketosis is just a state in which mostly ketones instead of glucogenic bodies are used for energy. Ketones may (like resveratrol) evoke autophagy-like responses in specific cells.
It is just a shift in fuel sources, with ketones having specific properties.
An adaptation instead of starvation.
So, please do not use the phrase starvation mode whenever the body is in ketosis. It is misleading and incorrect.
You must make a distinction between effects on cellular level and effects on macro level.
Through ketones in some cells, yes.panacea wrote:Ketosis is what causes a starvation mode.
But on macro level (the body), no, it is the other way around: starvation mode eventually causes ketosis.
If you want to teach people about ketosis, you need to get the terminolgy right for the sake of credibility.
The influence of ketones is interesting enough.
Re: ketogenic diet
Aha, once again, time after time, you're completely wrong about finding anything.
The body cannot be completely using autophagy for fuel in every cell at any full 24/7 day during life. Therefore even fasting for long periods is not in a complete, 100% autophagy active state. You seem to want definitions to be black and white. Fasting has more autophagy activity than a ketogenic diet as I have been saying all along, but they are not as different as you want them to be.
Also you can say I have been meaning to say x and y, but I will always correct you, because you seem to have not a clue what I actually mean, every single time.
There is no normally generally accepted definition for starvation mode, it's not a defined term, it's a phrase you made up, which I used in a subsequent post. We have been over this before, you just don't seem to like it. Yes, more people identify with actual starvation than a healthy ketogenic diet starvation mode 24/7, simply because a ketogenic diet is not widely known or understood in the general population, while actual starvation is. Strength in numbers doesn't make that interpretation truer, because while many people believe in Allah, I would define that not as spirituality, but as mass hysteria, and scientifically I would be more correct. If you want to talk in oversimplifications about weight loss from starvation that have nothing directly to do with the health benefits, perhaps talk about it on a non-health related website. Weight loss is a side effect of any diet with caloric restriction, not just fasting. Nothing special about it and starving at all other than increased speed, and once again, I will show you how it's not even the only/best way. You can further increase weight loss/autophagy while fasting by doing vigorous frequent exercise, that doesn't mean exercise+fasting is more "wholesome" autophagy and starvation than just fasting and sitting in a chair, at least in the "generally accepted definition", but according to your warped reality, that's exactly what it is, and it's better for you, because it more quickly "loses weight" and more quickly evokes autophagy and higher ketones, you might even die from it, wouldn't that be awesome! More is always better! I'm a raving lunatic named RRM, I hope you catch my drift.
The conclusion here is that you just don't like the reality of what I'm saying, therefore, I can't help you with any more questions, perhaps you should use the rest of the internet to answer your own questions, and find answers you like the sound of.
I've addressed your identical rhetoric time and time again, you just dont get it, the only thing I can do is ignore you from now on, on this topic.
For everyone else, the body can be in starvation mode 24/7 on a ketogenic diet. 100% true. The definition of starvation mode, as I am using it in these sentences, is to evoke the initial signs of starvation - autophagy, ketosis, glucose/protein sparing, to meaningful degrees, and get their beneficial effects, to meaningful degrees. I have said that many times already, but RRM seemed to have accidentally skipped over those lines, so I assume everyone else might have too, so I guess I have to keep repeating it.
The body cannot be completely using autophagy for fuel in every cell at any full 24/7 day during life. Therefore even fasting for long periods is not in a complete, 100% autophagy active state. You seem to want definitions to be black and white. Fasting has more autophagy activity than a ketogenic diet as I have been saying all along, but they are not as different as you want them to be.
Also you can say I have been meaning to say x and y, but I will always correct you, because you seem to have not a clue what I actually mean, every single time.
There is no normally generally accepted definition for starvation mode, it's not a defined term, it's a phrase you made up, which I used in a subsequent post. We have been over this before, you just don't seem to like it. Yes, more people identify with actual starvation than a healthy ketogenic diet starvation mode 24/7, simply because a ketogenic diet is not widely known or understood in the general population, while actual starvation is. Strength in numbers doesn't make that interpretation truer, because while many people believe in Allah, I would define that not as spirituality, but as mass hysteria, and scientifically I would be more correct. If you want to talk in oversimplifications about weight loss from starvation that have nothing directly to do with the health benefits, perhaps talk about it on a non-health related website. Weight loss is a side effect of any diet with caloric restriction, not just fasting. Nothing special about it and starving at all other than increased speed, and once again, I will show you how it's not even the only/best way. You can further increase weight loss/autophagy while fasting by doing vigorous frequent exercise, that doesn't mean exercise+fasting is more "wholesome" autophagy and starvation than just fasting and sitting in a chair, at least in the "generally accepted definition", but according to your warped reality, that's exactly what it is, and it's better for you, because it more quickly "loses weight" and more quickly evokes autophagy and higher ketones, you might even die from it, wouldn't that be awesome! More is always better! I'm a raving lunatic named RRM, I hope you catch my drift.
The conclusion here is that you just don't like the reality of what I'm saying, therefore, I can't help you with any more questions, perhaps you should use the rest of the internet to answer your own questions, and find answers you like the sound of.
I've addressed your identical rhetoric time and time again, you just dont get it, the only thing I can do is ignore you from now on, on this topic.
For everyone else, the body can be in starvation mode 24/7 on a ketogenic diet. 100% true. The definition of starvation mode, as I am using it in these sentences, is to evoke the initial signs of starvation - autophagy, ketosis, glucose/protein sparing, to meaningful degrees, and get their beneficial effects, to meaningful degrees. I have said that many times already, but RRM seemed to have accidentally skipped over those lines, so I assume everyone else might have too, so I guess I have to keep repeating it.
Re: ketogenic diet
I cannot take the credit for that.panacea wrote:There is no normally generally accepted definition for starvation mode, it's not a defined term, it's a phrase you made up
The phrase "starvation mode" is used by scientists.
Just submit "starvation mode" to the PubMed search engine.
Scientists use that phrase to refer to cellular mechanisms.
You translated that to the whole body; when some cells experience autophagy, the entire body must be in starvation mode.
But that is not necessarily so.
If that would be the case, one could argue that the body is in the "dying mode" if some cells experience apoptosis (cell death).
Obviously, cell conditions cannot automatically be translated to whole-body conditions.
If we look at the body in its entirety, we must take into account what "starvation mode" actually means for the body in its entirety.
First, we must look at what "starvation" means for the body.
"Starvation" means:
"Starvation response" meanswikipedia wrote: a severe deficiency in caloric energy intake needed to maintain human life
Is that clear enough?wikipedia wrote: a set of adaptive biochemical and physiological changes that reduce metabolism in response to a lack of food. Equivalent or closely related terms include starvation mode
Re: ketogenic diet
That definition is incomplete, as it excludes the effects of a lack of fat / the effects of a lack of food in general,panacea wrote:The definition of starvation mode, as I am using it in these sentences, is to evoke the initial signs of starvation - autophagy, ketosis, glucose/protein sparing
whereas "starvation" is about exactly that: "a lack of food" (in general).
You cannot bulk up on muscles in a mode in which there is "a lack of food".
Starvation mode
Calorie Starvation, is only one form of starvation.
I think there are other starvation:
Protein Starvation1, (Kwashiorkor), is when sufficient calories are provided, but not enough protein are taken in, protein mechanisms breaks down, and not enough protein.
Protein Starvation2, (Rabbit Starvation), is when sufficient proteins are taken in, but not enough fats to process proteins.
The ketogenic diet plan of Panacea seems susceptible to falling into a protein starvation if he is not careful of managing the fats and carbs (Protein starvation 2), or if he slacks on taking in enough protein (Protein starvation 1).
I think there are other starvation:
Protein Starvation1, (Kwashiorkor), is when sufficient calories are provided, but not enough protein are taken in, protein mechanisms breaks down, and not enough protein.
Protein Starvation2, (Rabbit Starvation), is when sufficient proteins are taken in, but not enough fats to process proteins.
The ketogenic diet plan of Panacea seems susceptible to falling into a protein starvation if he is not careful of managing the fats and carbs (Protein starvation 2), or if he slacks on taking in enough protein (Protein starvation 1).
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: ketogenic diet
All starvation modes have one thing in common: they are not sustainable, as they end in death.
This is also true for cells. Continuous autophagy in a cell is not sustainable.
For the body in its entirety, any mode of starvation, whether evoked by lacking protein or fats, or by calories in general, eventually leads to death.
If Panacea is right, and a body in ketosis is in starvation mode, it means that the lack of carbs and protein puts the body in starvation mode.
This autopmatically means that bulking up is impossible.
If bulking up is possible, it means there is no lack of protein.
And if there is sufficient protein available to fulfill the requirements of both glucose and protein, the body lacks nothing, and is therefore not in starvation mode.
If the body lacks nothing, it is not in starvation mode.
This is also true for cells. Continuous autophagy in a cell is not sustainable.
For the body in its entirety, any mode of starvation, whether evoked by lacking protein or fats, or by calories in general, eventually leads to death.
If Panacea is right, and a body in ketosis is in starvation mode, it means that the lack of carbs and protein puts the body in starvation mode.
This autopmatically means that bulking up is impossible.
If bulking up is possible, it means there is no lack of protein.
And if there is sufficient protein available to fulfill the requirements of both glucose and protein, the body lacks nothing, and is therefore not in starvation mode.
If the body lacks nothing, it is not in starvation mode.
Re: ketogenic diet
Hey panacea, what is the point you are trying to make summed up in one sentence?
Ketogenic diet improves autophagy processes in the cells? All cells? Some cells (which depend on glucose for energy)?
Ketogenic diet improves autophagy processes in the cells? All cells? Some cells (which depend on glucose for energy)?