Carbs, protein and retaining water

[ketodog]

RRM, how many hours it takes to your body to release the water retained after your high protein meal, based on your own experience?

[RRM]

Depending on the protein intake, that may take up to 2 days (of not consuming additional fish/eggs).

Maybe overeating causing hyperinsulinemia is the key.

Not overeating of sugars in the sense of percentage of energy intake, but only when energy intake is frequently not in accordance with energy requirements. Not caused by sugars, but by energy in general (including protein)

I have just ate a lot of protein in one sitting. Which places of my body should I be watching with more attention for changes in the tone of my skin?

Your face (especially the nose and the area around it), and also your abs (if you are ripped).

[ketodog]

RRM wrote:

Depending on the protein intake, that may take up to 2 days (of not consuming additional fish/eggs).

2 days consuming NO fish/eggs?

Not overeating of sugars in the sense of percentage of energy intake, but only when energy intake is frequently not in accordance with energy requirements. Not caused by sugars, but by energy in general (including protein)

Exactly. It may be difficult to isolate the effect of refined carbs (wheat) from the effect of overconsuming energy intake in general, including protein. If you eat too much garbage, you are consuming way too much protein, so I would need to use a variety of very low protein wheat item in my experiment, to see if I retain water or not.

Your face (especially the nose and the area around it), and also your abs (if you are ripped).

I have found that my nose is swollen right now, after my high protein intake from yesterday!

I have found that effect on my nose too in the past when binging on refined carbs (wheat), but I didn´t want to mention it before but to hear it from you to confirm my observation, thanks!

The upper abs and the back region of wy waist are swollen too.

[RRM]

2 days consuming NO fish/eggs?

Exactly; to get my blood-protein level down after that elevation that caused the increase in water retention.
If the initial protein excess was not that big, one day of not eating any egg yolks / fish will already do.

I have found that effect on my nose too in the past when binging on refined carbs (wheat), but I didn´t want to mention it before but to hear it from you to confirm my observation, thanks!

Ah, well wheat is not consumed raw, and contains quite some protein, so dirty protein, which is what causes the water retention...

[ketodog]

After 36 hours from my high protein day I am noting my nose more normal, not so swollen! My abs are recovering their definition too!

RRM wrote:

Exactly; to get my blood-protein level down after that elevation that caused the increase in water retention.

So blood-protein level can be elevated that long? I don´t want make you lose time by explaining all this if it´s already present in Waisays. Is it there or other places from where I can read about protein/aminos and their lifetime in the bloodstream?

Why on earth most coaches recommend to their clients to consume wheat protein/BCAAs (brand chain amino acids) before and after a workout?

I never tried BCAAs or other stuff like that, but I didn´t notice any extra muscle gains from eating protein before and after a workout. Maybe it´s all overrated to sell supplements, despite I am confident that studies show an increase in protein synthesis when using 6 grams of BCAAs before and after exercise. Maybe there´s a little effect form BCAAs/protein that the eyes cannot observe, but that could have only more relevant influence in the cutting phase before a contest to preserve muscle mass.

[avo]

I have just ate a lot of protein in one sitting. Which places of my body should I be watching with more attention for changes in the tone of my skin?

Your face (especially the nose and the area around it), and also your abs (if you are ripped).

Hmm, so that is one reason why I appeared 'thicker' (especially in the belly/face areas) when I was eating 200g/day of raw fish.

Good to know, thanks.

[RRM]

So blood-protein level can be elevated that long?

Yes, because the body can only keep amino acids available in the blood.
For fatty acids there is adipose tissue, and glucose can be temporarily stored as glycogen and glycerol, but amino acids cannot be stored anywhere, except in the blood. Thats why the blood amino acid levels can vary that much (from 100% up to 900%), and the consequence of that is that its fluctuations span much more time (than for fat and especially glucose)

Is it there or other places from where I can read about protein/aminos and their lifetime in the bloodstream?

Not in WaiSays, but maybe we should add something about that, indeed.
Its an interesting topic.
Books about human biochemistry generally contain information about values of normal blood amino acid fluctuations. Not about their lifetime, but the width of the fluctuations tells you something about our body's tolerance to such fluctuations, and thus the length of such waves.
Some info about fluctuations of specific amino acids can also be found in various studies:

Hussein et al, Daily Fluctuation of Plasma Amino Acid Levels in Adult Men: Effect of Dietary Tryptophan Intake and Distribution of Meals. Journal of Nutrition Vol. 101 No. 1 January 1971, pp. 61-69
...the pattern of daily fluctuations in plasma free amino acid levels is significantly affected by the dietary conditions under which the measurements are made.
Epner DE et al, Nutrient intake and nutritional indexes in adults with metastatic cancer on a phase I clinical trial of dietary methionine restriction. Nutr Cancer. 2002;42(2):158-66.Plasma methionine levels fell from 21.6 +/- 7.3 to 9 +/- 4 microM within 2 wk (of dietary methionine restriction)
Caillaud et al, A 3-base pair in-frame deletion of the phenylalanine hydroxylase gene results in a genetic variant of phenylketonuria. J.biol Chem. 266 (15) / 9351-4...normal plasma phenylalanine levels (0.1 - 0.5 mmol / liter)...

Why on earth most coaches recommend to their clients to consume wheat protein/BCAAs (brand chain amino acids) before and after a workout?

Because your body indeed recovers faster when all amino acids are abundantly present compared when less well present.
Of course one should only supplement when required, but its easier to simply recommend supplementation for everybody...

[ketodog]

Because your body indeed recovers faster when all amino acids are abundantly present compared when less well present.
Of course one should only supplement when required, but its easier to simply recommend supplementation for everybody...

So for someone working out on the Wai diet, would you recommend to eat his yolks/fish around the training session?

[RRM]

So for someone working out on the Wai diet, would you recommend to eat his yolks/fish around the training session?

Right after, yes, but first a great intake of sugars to replenish glycogen and to prevent amino acid > glucose conversion.

[sungvimil]

Is water retention related to protein requirements? Would weight lifting, for example, by increasing amino acids utilization thus accelerating their clearance from the bloodstream, cause less water retention?

I mean, if someone eats 150 grams of raw fish and retains a bit of water under the skin, would an increase in physical activity instead of lowering protein intake do the job?

[RRM]

Is water retention related to protein requirements?

Yes, indirectly, as the protein levels in the blood and lymphe are determined by intake and utilization.

Would weight lifting, for example, by increasing amino acids utilization thus accelerating their clearance from the bloodstream, cause less water retention?

Only if protein intake would not increase as much as protein requirements. Also, with increased protein intakes (and requirements) there is an increased risk of increased 'redundant protein' levels (The ratio remains the same, but the numbers increase; 50% of 200 > 50% of 100)

if someone eats 150 grams of raw fish and retains a bit of water under the skin, would an increase in physical activity instead of lowering protein intake do the job?

If protein intake remains the same, yes, there is less redundant protein. However, it takes time before the required amino acids are actually taken up, so that in the meantime the skin will not retain less water, and a brief moment of water retention may already lead to water retention.
So, this would lead to less 'water retention exposure' (in hours), but not necessarily less acne.

[sungvimil]

However, it takes time before the required amino acids are actually taken up, so that in the meantime the skin will not retain less water, and a brief moment of water retention may already lead to water retention.

But if raw fish is consumed before and after a weight training session, wouldn´t that amino acids go preferentially to replace and build new muscle protein?

If I were to consume raw fish instead of liquid amino acids before a workout, how many minutes before I have to eat it to ensure adequate amino acid levels in the blood? (This based on the studies showing even better protein synthesis with pre than with post BCAAs.) But the best results are achieved with both pre and post-workout amino acid ingestion. So I like to eat RAF after and before exercise, but I am not sure how that compares to liquid free aminos or other more ¨easy to absorb¨ products.

[RRM]

But if raw fish is consumed before and after a weight training session, wouldn´t that amino acids go preferentially to replace and build new muscle protein?

To a lerger extend than compared to not working out, yes. But still, its no solution, as a moment of retaining too much water may already cause acne.
Also, if you eat fish before a workout, digestion will be less complete, which also may cause acne.

If I were to consume raw fish instead of liquid amino acids before a workout, how many minutes before I have to eat it to ensure adequate amino acid levels in the blood?

Unlike liquid amino acids, fish protein needs to be digested first, and exercise compromises digestion, which may lead to acne.

[sungvimil]

Thanks for your replies RRM

I have been trying a different version of the diet for some days, more or less like a fatty/protein version. I am eating much more RAF and fats and very little fruit/juices. As a consequence I am ingesting much less fluids. What happened? I don´t retain water, at all.

So could it be that the version of this diet that I have just described allows for a higher protein intake, making it an interesting opportunity for those trying to clear their acne/cellulite but that can´t cope with high amounts of sugars?

Ah, and I am not dehydrated, despite my lower fluid intake.

[RRM]

could it be that the version of this diet that I have just described allows for a higher protein intake

No, your protein tolerance does not increase by consuming more fat.
You should also take into account that everybody (also men) is subject to water retention-cycles. If you do this exact diet for 2 months in a row, and then do the high-fruit diet for 2 months in a row, you will get different results, i suspect.
It may very well be that your protein tolerance is greater than that of many others. Then the results of this 4-months test will show no differences between the 2 diets.

an interesting opportunity for those trying to clear their acne/cellulite but that can´t cope with high amounts of sugars?

A high fat diet is the only alternative for those who cannot cope with high amounts of sugar, unless this person coincidentally has a high intolerance for protein as well.

I am not dehydrated, despite my lower fluid intake.

Dehydration does not take place that readily. Particularly on this diet you consume way more water than required.