Acne & Evolution

[B-Rad]

If it were that wouldn't negate the validity of these theories at all.

Ok so you don't agree with the Wai theory?

Im saying it has no bearing on whether this is true or not.

In my opinion there are theories that are more likely or less likely. If these theories would be true, then acne would be an evolutionary, and thus genetic disorder. This would mean acne would be impossible to cure by something as the Wai diet. I think the results show otherwise.

genetic disorders can be circumvented. for example diabetics take exogenous insulin or eat a lot of sugar when they get hypoglycemia

Well it's not doing a very good job with that. The birth rate needs to be dropped to like -20% for the next 1000 yrs. to eliminate overpopulation.

Where did you get that notion?

crime, poverty, depletion of resources

He wasn't some incredibly smart guy, he was just allowed to be too powerful, because of flaws in that society.

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin

zeitgeist is mainly fabricated, loosely based on historical truth. more of a satire of conspiracy theories than anything else. try not paying your taxes and see what happens. government will never work because power corrupts any man. "Adversity makes men, and prosperity makes monsters." - Victor Hugo

[Oscar]

genetic disorders can be circumvented. for example diabetics take exogenous insulin or eat a lot of sugar when they get hypoglycemia

So?

crime, poverty, depletion of resources

The conclusion that overpopulation is the cause, is quite premature, I'd say.

The discussion about income taxes has been split off.

[B-Rad]

genetic disorders can be circumvented. for example diabetics take exogenous insulin or eat a lot of sugar when they get hypoglycemia

So?

so acne can too?

crime, poverty, depletion of resources

The conclusion that overpopulation is the cause, is quite premature, I'd say.

the only fixable cause. unless you think that people with power actually care about your opinions.

[Oscar]

so acne can too?

Well, you just assume acne and diabetes are genetic disorders, which hasn't been proven so far. Is there a circumvention for Down's Syndrome? Duchenne's Muscular Dystrophy?
In any case, to assume acne is genetic is one thing, but to build even further on that assumption, and assume it's genetic because Nature doesn't want certain kids to have sex at a certain age...don't you think that is far-fetched? First: prove that acne is, or can be, genetic.

the only fixable cause. unless you think that people with power actually care about your opinions.

So you're saying that even if, for example, there is enough food for everyone, the human population has to decrease, because people with power don't care?
Give me some statistical info to back up those claims.

[panacea]

I don't even understand why he thinks it's a genetic disorder lol. I mean, if you argue that oh, the reason it's got all these flaws in my theory is because it can be circumvented... ok.. then you could argue a billion other things are genetic disorders too which they're not. For example, you could say oh, well, cancer is genetically prone in everyone.. some more than others.. and when you get cancer, from eating all these toxic foods and stuff and doing all these unnatural things, then a tumor grows, well that's a genetic disorder to stop people from living forever and having kids when they're 80. I mean come on. Genetically there's links to every problem, including acne, that doesn't mean it's the source. Genetically we are wired not to survive without oxygen, it doesn't mean if we went in outerspace with no oxygen tank we would say that the suffocation that would take place is the result of a genetic disease just because our genes play a role in what we are. It's just a bodily reaction to not having enough resources (oxygen), whereas acne is a bodily reaction to having too many bad/imbalanced amount of resources (toxins).

[B-Rad]

so acne can too?

Well, you just assume acne and diabetes are genetic disorders, which hasn't been proven so far. Is there a circumvention for Down's Syndrome? Duchenne's Muscular Dystrophy?
In any case, to assume acne is genetic is one thing, but to build even further on that assumption, and assume it's genetic because Nature doesn't want certain kids to have sex at a certain age...don't you think that is far-fetched? First: prove that acne is, or can be, genetic.

you claimed that this theory and the wai theory are incompatible. I showed that they may not be contradictory. thats all I intended to show with that

So you're saying that even if, for example, there is enough food for everyone, the human population has to decrease, because people with power don't care?
Give me some statistical info to back up those claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributi ... ted_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_ine ... Inequality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_ ... ted_States

btw, the federal gov't actually pays farmers to produce only a certain amount of food. modern farming technology could easily feed all human beings from first world countries

[B-Rad]

that is, from the outputs of 1st world countries

[panacea]

you claimed that this theory and the wai theory are incompatible. I showed that they may not be contradictory. thats all I intended to show with that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributi ... ted_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_ine ... Inequality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_ ... ted_States

btw, the federal gov't actually pays farmers to produce only a certain amount of food. modern farming technology could easily feed all human beings from first world countries

It doesn't matter if the theories are incompatible because the acne/evolution/genetic theory is wrong, as has been logically shown. There is absolutely no basis, no reason, from a sane or even an insane standpoint, for acne to develop for any social advantage. If girls didn't want to get raped, they could simply not bathe, or cover themselves in dirt or mud, or something practical, not wait thousands of years to evolve acne, which they are getting raped in that time anyway. I mean the ones that didn't develop acne, by your own ideas, would simply get raped/pregnant and the ones that did, by your ideas, would not, thus weeding out the genetic disorder/tendency or whatever by sheer population. If you have the insane notion to argue that oh, the ones with acne got pregnant later and somehow came out on top, because the wild humans back then saw the civilized courtship in it, come on. I love interesting conversation but this has more flaws in it than religion, so why not accept the logic? Give me one logical Reason (not drawing assumptions like, oh since a lot of people have acne, then it must be so) why acne would be a genetic disorder or an evolved trait. Keep in mind anyone, including a 5 year old boy, could say, 'oh, because everyone I know has green boogers it must be a genetic disorder'. Or maybe it's because they eat a bunch of toxic foods preventing them from having the more natural white/clear mucus? That just makes too much sense for this topic though, let's get rid of it.

[B-Rad]

It doesn't matter if the theories are incompatible because the acne/evolution/genetic theory is wrong, as has been logically shown. There is absolutely no basis, no reason, from a sane or even an insane standpoint, for acne to develop for any social advantage. If girls didn't want to get raped, they could simply not bathe, or cover themselves in dirt or mud, or something practical, not wait thousands of years to evolve acne, which they are getting raped in that time anyway. I mean the ones that didn't develop acne, by your own ideas, would simply get raped/pregnant and the ones that did, by your ideas, would not, thus weeding out the genetic disorder/tendency or whatever by sheer population. If you have the insane notion to argue that oh, the ones with acne got pregnant later and somehow came out on top, because the wild humans back then saw the civilized courtship in it, come on. I love interesting conversation but this has more flaws in it than religion, so why not accept the logic? Give me one logical Reason (not drawing assumptions like, oh since a lot of people have acne, then it must be so) why acne would be a genetic disorder or an evolved trait. Keep in mind anyone, including a 5 year old boy, could say, 'oh, because everyone I know has green boogers it must be a genetic disorder'. Or maybe it's because they eat a bunch of toxic foods preventing them from having the more natural white/clear mucus? That just makes too much sense for this topic though, let's get rid of it.

sorry, I didn't know you were actually being serious, since basically everything you post is an incoherent, irrelevant rambling. with some ADD mixed in since you rehash points already addressed and insert it into the current rant to create a sort of combination of past, present and future ADD rants that allow intercommentary time travel. I tried to be optimistic, I really did. I wish I had even a percentile of your intellectual capacity someday, where I could just run up on somebody's thread, post a few big paragraphs that are so intellectually condensed everyone is left dumbfounded of what to say, then incorporate elements of all posts in the thread (possibly in different order), with some smack talk thrown in to really awe and sledgehammer the objective home in a blaze of glory.

[Oscar]

you claimed that this theory and the wai theory are incompatible. I showed that they may not be contradictory. thats all I intended to show with that

Well, I don't think I said that. Only that when deciding upon a 'most likely' theory, we have to discard other, less likely theories. Of course every individual has to decide what he or she deems to be more or less likely.
To give an example: I could pose a theory where aliens injected teenagers with a compound that gives us acne for a number of years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributi ... ted_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_ine ... Inequality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_ ... ted_States

btw, the federal gov't actually pays farmers to produce only a certain amount of food. modern farming technology could easily feed all human beings from first world countries

Erm, you actually prove my point here, do you not?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I do think discussions like these and theories/questioning in general are very useful and interesting.

[B-Rad]

Erm, you actually prove my point here, do you not?

I think it proves that people with power pretty much only care about themselves and their own power. And not such idealistic fantasies like community reponsibility, moral integrity, or lofty ethics . What did you get out of it?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I do think discussions like these and theories/questioning in general are very useful and interesting.

yea, that was my intention with the thread. I posted here because I think Wai theory is more developed than most other theories out there and throwing new stuff in for debate can help to refine aspects of beliefs about acne and diet in general.

not for it to turn into a dick-waving free-for-all contest where somebody has to be wrong and their opponent gets a verbal internet beatdown to show who the alpha male of the thread is.

[panacea]

After all of that rambling and ranting (it's ironic that the rambler accuses someone else of doing it) there is still no logical basis for any theories you've put forward, as I requested in plain English.

Also, please stop using immature insults just because you have nothing meaningful to say when I request that you provide some logic to an insane notion.

The only reason I even have to post those 'ramblings' is because you ignore the logical facts and instead wish to push this communities thought in the wrong direction by basing assumptions on non-logic. I've given numerous examples why your theories don't make sense (perhaps that's why you have a problem with my paragraphs?) and given numerous logical points that refute the idea that acne would ever be developed for any social benefit. Your feedback thus far has been 'I wish I could understand', and ignoring every piece of feedback in your post, which by the way warrants feedback, otherwise you can keep it to yourself if you don't want people to respond. If you just wanted everyone to sit back and agree with your loose theory, then you shouldn't have posted on a intelligent group of people's board.

In case that was too long to read, here's the simple one sentence version: If you aren't ready to intelligently debate something rather than post wikipedia articles and other 'sources' that can be interpreted to mean millions of different things, including whatever points you want it to support, or whatever points Oscar thinks it supports, or whatever points I think it supports, simply argue in your head because that's the only person that's going to agree with you.

On the other hand if you want to actually use your own logic and reasoning by all means tell us why acne would need to be developed to deter horny boys when girls could simply cover themselves in dirt or mud. Also tell us why acne on boys would somehow make girls superstrong so as to deter them from raping them. Also please tell us why the ancient wild humans waited thousands of years for acne to develop to loosely patch the problem rather than just evolve women to not be fertile as soon, as would be the logical answer to the problem, since it's the answer in every other case of animal mating as well as our own, in reality.

[panacea]

For anyone else that doesn't want to read all the posts and catch up, this entire debate can be summarized as:

Argument: Acne is maybe the result of evolution and possibly a genetic disorder?
Answer: Obviously not because firstly, it's just the bodies way to excrete toxins through the skin, when other elimination systems aren't doing the job completely. Secondly, everyone has genetic tendencies for things like acne, diabetes, etc, however these cases only happen Extremelyyy rarely in wild situations, and it's only the EXTREMELY unique case that we have such an unnatural lifestyle that brings these 'hidden problems' to the surface. In fact, the whole genetic disorder concept is misunderstood, as except for the extremely rare cases, almost everything that goes wrong in any ordinary-circumstance human (by that I mean, didn't have an alcoholic smoking pregnant mother), is the result of environmental stress. Environmental stress can be the result of, psychological stress, intake of toxins through toxic food, polluted air, water, lack of sunlight, lack of movement, improper posture, improper sex apetite, improper immune system development due to washing hands and being civilized and sanitary. On and on, it all comes back to the unnatural way we live. People have to get it out of their minds that the problems they face like being overweight, acne-ridden, smelly, poor eyesight, and diabetic is because of some evolutionary fluke. Sorry, mother nature doesn't mess up over and over and over again, she corrects herself in the vast majority. That's just us humans that fuck things up. In many cases, the blame can partly be due to the mother, like from not breastfeeding, or breastfeeding while in-taking toxins herself, etc etc.

There's a lot of possibilities, but the short answer is that your genes are not to blame, they just have weaker links in the code like any chain does, and the abuse of your body from the modern world or by your mothers abuse of you while in the womb breaks those weaker links. For the nazi-minded perfectionists out there, that just like to take things out of context, yes this still means there are rare cases of genetic disorders, it doesn't mean that they are widespread unless some kind of radiation is present in the area, or some other similar cause.

[zackcentury]

First, I want to know what an improper sex appetite is, and what it causes?
Also, I hope there aren't any Nazis around here.

It's difficult to debate this topic if everyone can't first agree about how evolution and genetics "work". One thing to keep in mind is that evolution does NOT happen because 'it' wants to accomplish anything. There is no ultimate goal of evolution, there is no intelligence or decision making involved in evolution--humans and animals can make decisions, which may in fact influence a selection process--but traits do not arise because evolution "wants" them to.

In the Free Acne Book, it's written that dominant/non-dominant males have differing hormone levels which make them more or less susceptible to acne. This sounds to me like genetic predisposition to acne, but not necessarily a "disorder". The case for its being widespread is only correlation--numbers alone do not prove anything at all. Does the obesity rate, 20/20 vision rate, or the rate of any other common "disorder" prove anything by itself? Young people in puberty grow abnormally fast in certain ways (large feet, long limbs, hair growth) while other parts of their body may change more slowly. An example is Osgood Schlatter disease, caused in part by immature bone growth. But the hormone levels during puberty do not explain adult acne, nor can they support acne's role in sexual selection in a people who only very recently invented dating, marriage, contraception, kids at age 30, etc.

The first article is just a theory, and until I see the rest of the article, I can only say it's interesting but not worth much until there's compelling evidence. The second article is interesting, too, but this sentence

We must assume that males with acne are equally unthreatening and appreciative towards welcoming human females.

is a problem, because human sexual behavior is not the same as monkey sexual behavior, especially with human cultural influence having some part in the process.

I think I group adult acne with other "diseases" like obesity, hypertension (sometimes), and diabetes. It's what happens to your body when you do 'X'.

Secondly, everyone has genetic tendencies for things like acne, diabetes, etc, however these cases only happen Extremelyyy rarely in wild situations, and it's only the EXTREMELY unique case that we have such an unnatural lifestyle that brings these 'hidden problems' to the surface.

Panacea, what do you mean? why would only unnatural lifestyles cause genetic tendencies to manifest? Also, aren't we , and everything we're "born with", all just flukes? What is a fluke if we didn't have ideals? I think mother nature actually messes up every second of every day, and at the same time, it never messes up anything. Even genetic mutations and disorders could be considered entirely "natural". Maybe this last bit doesn't make sense hahaha. And, because I'm more proud than ever to be associated with this community, I'll end with an amusing bit from a Wai article:

To prevent radical dietary changes from affecting economic status quo, everybody is warned against sites like Wai World:

"Any site that has strikingly different information (different from common health-sites) is a warning sign that it may be an unprofessional site".

[panacea]

Secondly, everyone has genetic tendencies for things like acne, diabetes, etc, however these cases only happen Extremelyyy rarely in wild situations, and it's only the EXTREMELY unique case that we have such an unnatural lifestyle that brings these 'hidden problems' to the surface.

Panacea, what do you mean? why would only unnatural lifestyles cause genetic tendencies to manifest? Also, aren't we , and everything we're "born with", all just flukes? What is a fluke if we didn't have ideals? I think mother nature actually messes up every second of every day, and at the same time, it never messes up anything. Even genetic mutations and disorders could be considered entirely "natural". Maybe this last bit doesn't make sense hahaha.

Because our bodies are adaptive to how we use them, for example, hardly ever does a wild animal become obese in the proportions modern humans do, and if they did I would speculate that they found some modern toxic food somewhere. Then you have domestic animals, that all too often have similar problems modern humans do, arthritis, fatigue, obesity, etc. This is because an unnatural lifestyle gives unnatural symptoms. (diet/exposure to foreign stressors or the lack of natural stress, like a pet bird being in a cage most of it's life and generally being weaker than wild birds, it's easy to see this even in your own pets vs the wild counterpart, you wouldn't want them to get in a fight with the wild counterpart would you?)

You can even extend this to plants, the ones that aren't stressed, and don't have their natural diet, like in some it's a certain amount of sunshine, they wither or sometimes die prematurely. It's not like I'm arguing some outrageous idea here, this is a common truth that stretches amongst all living things.