Why Wai dieters have to eat 20 meals a day

[B-Rad]

Many sips combines to a lot of energy, No?
Thats how i get my 3500+ kcal.

I'd expect alot more than sips to drink 3500 cals; even over 20 meals.

By that logic, you can eat until your stomach is filled up, no?

Yes

But if we cannot eat big meals, itsnt it HARDER to become obese?

Just more inconvenient

If you think we are constantly hungry because we need energy constantly,

I don't. Thats the whole point. Being hungry from something other than requiring energy.

Ok, and when they do, they are not constantly hungry, right?
simply because they hardly ever let it come that far.
We consume energy BEFORE we get hungry; we keep 'in touch' with
our energy level to prevent hunger (blood glucose going down too much)

Yea, but you wouldn't keep eating if you felt full or achieved satiety. Hunger is more of a mechanism for the body to express it's desire to be fed; it's not a blanket term to describe any time you feel like eating.

Well, you seem to imply that 'normal' people have no analytical skills (they are fools without common sense)
and that its hard for them to make any sense of what is written in scientific studies.

Right

and that only researchers have the common sense to distract meaningful info from a scientific study.

Wrong

So, we are not analyzing what you are saying?
If you re-read this thread, we do exactly that.

You haven't though. You just claim something has to be some way because you say so; without providing any logical or empirical support for a claim.

[Oscar]

People on a common diet are supposed to eat 3 meals a day. Not counting coffee, tea, soda, juice, potato chips, chocolate, cookies, etc etc. Would you still see that as 3 meals, or different?

[RRM]

I'd expect alot more than sips to drink 3500 cals; even over 20 meals.

What is it that makes you think we consume 20 meals a day?
I sip juice all day, and thats how i get to my 3500 kcal.

By that logic, you can eat until your stomach is filled up, no?

Yes

And that might be a big meal, yes?

But if we cannot eat big meals, itsnt it HARDER to become obese?

Just more inconvenient

So, if we cannot eat big meals its more 'inconvenient' to become obese?
as in....
a little harder?

If you think we are constantly hungry because we need energy constantly,

I don't. Thats the whole point. Being hungry from something other than requiring energy.

So, what is your point?
Do you think we are constantly hungry from something other than needing energy?
If so, what makes you think that we are constantly hungry?

Ok, and when they do, they are not constantly hungry, right?
simply because they hardly ever let it come that far.
We consume energy BEFORE we get hungry; we keep 'in touch' with
our energy level to prevent hunger (blood glucose going down too much)

Yea, but you wouldn't keep eating if you felt full or achieved satiety. Hunger is more of a mechanism for the body to express it's desire to be fed; it's not a blanket term to describe any time you feel like eating.

Immediately after sipping juice, i feel satiety, which prevents me from drinking more.
We dont keep eating, because we feel satiety.
Hence sipping juice all day; so that we ingest the energy required anyway.
Do you think that we lie?
That we actually keep on eating?
that we actually eat big meals?
What is your point?

Well, you seem to imply that 'normal' people have no analytical skills (they are fools without common sense)
and that its hard for them to make any sense of what is written in scientific studies.

Right

Ok, thats clear then.

and that only researchers have the common sense to distract meaningful info from a scientific study.

Wrong

Huh?
But who else can do that?
If they are not normal people or researchers, who else can distract meaningful info from a scientific study?

So, we are not analyzing what you are saying?
If you re-read this thread, we do exactly that.

You haven't though. You just claim something has to be some way because you say so; without providing any logical or empirical support for a claim.

Ok, so, in this communication between you and me, i am not analyzing what you have written?
Im not asking you any questions to get to understand what you mean?

[summerwave]

I remember reading a book some time ago; I think it was named _The Hibernation Diet_... (M. MacInnes (sp?) was the author))...

It talks about what I found helpful for myself, since I consume nearly 100% monosaccharides for sugars; that is, that honey, at 50% glucose/50% fructose has properties that keep up a steady flow of energy by buffering the glucose's utilisation in the blood with fructose in the liver.

I do not rely on the book's interpretation, but since I follow a somewhat restricted form of the Wai diet, I found it a useful discussion of some things that I had already found to work for me.

I supplement my drinks now with both glucose and fructose powders (instead of sucrose), in that proportion. Indeed, as I have said, I eat proportionally more glucose and fructose than sucrose and have no problems at all. I do eat a lot; after illness I have tried to gain weight, and I steadily have done so. Fructose has been perfectly helpful to me, without any side effects.

[B-Rad]

People on a common diet are supposed to eat 3 meals a day. Not counting coffee, tea, soda, juice, potato chips, chocolate, cookies, etc etc. Would you still see that as 3 meals, or different?

usually if they eat snacks they wont have 3 big meals

What is it that makes you think we consume 20 meals a day?
I sip juice all day, and thats how i get to my 3500 kcal.

key word being all day

And that might be a big meal, yes?

Depends. for example eating alot of fiber will fill the stomach up without a high caloric intake

So, if we cannot eat big meals its more 'inconvenient' to become obese?
as in....
a little harder?

yes

Do you think we are constantly hungry from something other than needing energy?
If so, what makes you think that we are constantly hungry?

eating 20 times/day

Immediately after sipping juice, i feel satiety, which prevents me from drinking more.

right, but you feel like eating again soon after

Huh?
But who else can do that?
If they are not normal people or researchers, who else can distract meaningful info from a scientific study?

perceptive people

Ok, so, in this communication between you and me, i am not analyzing what you have written?
Im not asking you any questions to get to understand what you mean?

doesn't seem that way. It just looks like you're making the same unbacked claims, but in a different wording each post.

[RRM]

Fructose basically knocks out satiety hormones

That is based on very high-fructose diet (fructose syrup etc) studies.
Not on fruits-based diets.
In a fruit based diet, there is also plenty of glucose present, which does cause satiety.
That explains why we DO feel satiety after every few sips of juice or small meal.
You cannot just blame fructose (or glucose, or fat).
You need to analyze things in perspective.
The perspective is that in practice (like the Wai diet) fructose is accompanied with much more glucose than in those studies, creating a balance.
And its that balance that we need.
Fructose is not the bad guy.
Its just an ingredient that needs to be in balance with other ingredients.

Fructose basically knocks out satiety hormones making you feel hungry all the time.

what makes you think that we are constantly hungry?

eating 20 times/day
...
If you weren't constantly hungry, you wouldn't have to eat 20 times a day, would you?

There is more about food consumption than just the response to a feeling of hunger.
You may also consume food to PREVENT hunger.
And that is exactly what we do on this diet.
I understand that this concept is somewhat hard to grasp.
Basically its about keeping your blood glucose level up all the time, so that you never experience hunger, and always feel energetic.
But if you never felt this, i understand that you may not believe it to be true.
One actually needs to learn to explore that area between satiety and "feeling like eating".
You may want to read up on this forum; on this diet its so much easier to eat too little than too much; just read the posts of so many who have visited this forum.

I'd expect alot more than sips to drink 3500 cals; even over 20 meals.

What is it that makes you think we consume 20 meals a day?
I sip juice all day, and thats how i get to my 3500 kcal.

key word being all day

Exactly!
So, when you sip juice all day, its very well possible to drink over 3500 kcal.
It just takes a whole lot of sips.
And thats exactly how one constantly prevents the blood glucose level from going down too much (which would have resulted in hunger).
There is a whole area between satiety and hunger.
In between lays the feeling of "feel like eating".
And thats our lowest level. We dont let it go down further to hunger.
We try to let it float between satiety and "feel like eating".

Immediately after sipping juice, i feel satiety, which prevents me from drinking more.

right, but you feel like eating again soon after

Sure, but then we immediately respond by taking a sip of juice for example, so that we will not go down to feeling hungry.

it's impossible to eat big meals on the Wai diet and everyone knew it... just posted the possible reasons why

But if we cannot eat big meals, itsnt it HARDER to become obese?

Just more inconvenient

So, if we cannot eat big meals its more 'inconvenient' to become obese?
as in....
a little harder?

yes

Ah. So, on the Wai Diet its actually a little harder to become obese.
So that the 'in theory' conclusion

Fructose basically knocks out satiety hormones making you feel hungry all the time.
In theory, it should be causing serious weight gain.

is not plausible

[sungvimil]

It seems that people who talk about fructose being bad don´t bother to check more info. To view the following links you have to copy and paste the whole text, line by line, to your URL browser.

Take this study for example.

¨We conclude that short-term replacement of other carbohydrate
sources in the diabetic diet with fructose will improve glycemic
control, whereas replacement with sucrose will not aggravate glycemic
control.¨
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3783868

Or this one.

¨No significant differences were observed between either the fructose
or the sucrose diet and the control polysaccharide diet in any of the
measures of glycemic control, serum lipid levels, or insulin and C-
peptide secretion.¨
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8908389?
ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pu
bmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles
&logdbfrom=pubmed

Or this review.

¨It has been postulated that increasing consumption of fructose may
be a contributory factor in the development of obesity and the
accompanying metabolic abnormalities. Most studies supporting these
hypotheses, however, are animal studies, which suggest that
consumption of high amounts of fructose may stimulate lipogenesis and
thus alter lipid metabolism and increase body weight. This review
explores the effects of dietary fructose on lipid metabolism in
humans, with the conclusion that the data so far do not support any
significant specific adverse effect of fructose apart from its energy
content. A small amount of fructose may even improve glucose
tolerance, and studies to date on diabetic subjects indicate that
isocaloric replacement of some glucose-based carbohydrates with
fructose may improve metabolic control¨
http://journals.sfu.ca/coaction/index.p ... le/1559/14
27

This is also interesting. Too much for the idea that fructose by
itself cause obesity. It´s the package of wheat, high-PUFA oils, and
other rubbish what causes overeating, not the fructose by itself.

¨When subjects drank the fructose preload, they subsequently ate
fewer overall calories and fewer grams of fat than when they drank
any of the other preloads¨
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2178391

This one shows that starch may neglect fructose´s hability to
satiate hunger.
¨When the preload contained fructose alone as the sole source of
carbohydrate, subjects ate significantly fewer calories and less fat
than when the preload contained glucose alone. When starch was added
to the fructose preload, there was no significant reduction in
calorie and fat intake.¨
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1799 ... tsPanel.Pu
bmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles
&logdbfrom=pubmed

[sungvimil]

Luckily all the links work!

So no need for cutting and pasting.

[Oscar]

Great post sungvimil

usually if they eat snacks they wont have 3 big meals

I'm not sure if you've looked around at what people usually do, which is just that. But I suppose then most of the western world does not eat 3 meals a day but quite a few more. Wai dieters do not eat 20 meals, but either about 6 or 7, or like 20 snacks per day, depending on how you look at it. If you analyze what the general population does, it's not THAT far apart from what Wai people do, except their (bigger) meals are quite a bit bigger than ours.

Anyway, addressing your point in the OP about weight gain: gaining or losing weight basically has to do with the balance between energy intake and output. If those are the same, then no weight will be gained or lost. Looking per day it doesn't matter whether that total amount is spread over 3 or 20 meals.

[B-Rad]

That is based on very high-fructose diet (fructose syrup etc) studies.

The perspective is that in practice (like the Wai diet) fructose is accompanied with much more glucose than in those studies, creating a balance.

It's got nothing to do with quantity of fructose, that's just what fructose does period.

In a fruit based diet, there is also plenty of glucose present, which does cause satiety.

High fructose corn syrup is 50% glucose. That's not alot? Same as table sugar

Basically its about keeping your blood glucose level up all the time, so that you never experience hunger, and always feel energetic.

Big meals release energy over time more slowly, creating the same effect.

You may want to read up on this forum; on this diet its so much easier to eat too little than too much

yea, but don't you think only being able to drink juice would slaughter anyone's caloric intake and appetite? lol

Ah. So, on the Wai Diet its actually a little harder to become obese.
So that the 'in theory' conclusion

Fructose basically knocks out satiety hormones making you feel hungry all the time.
In theory, it should be causing serious weight gain.

is not plausible

It is plausible. By knocking out satiety, fructose can cause increased caloric intake. Because it's harder to gain weight off wai diet, doesn't mean fructose doesn't prevent satiety.

The reason low carb or low fat diets work for weight loss is because they prohibit consumption from one food group. Any time a diet does that, it inevitably will cause decreased caloric intake regardless.

It seems that people who talk about fructose being bad don´t bother to check more info.

So you found studies showing people consuming fructose then having a meal with less calories in an attempt to prove eating fructose causes a decreased caloric intake overall? Nice job broski.

Btw, that actually supports my postulation as the more fructose they'll consume the more meals they'll probably be having

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18627777

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1938 ... d_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18257753

I could also post the dozens of studies that display altered serum lipid and triglyceride levels with increased fructose consumption. But I'll leave the "pretending to know what I'm talking about gig" to you.

Fact is no one can fully interpret these studies or fully comprehend what it means because not all variables are known. If I had a dime for every time some researcher claimed to have uncovered the flawless truth only to find out later there was some feedback loop or physiological alteration he missed I'd be a fricken billionaire by now

If you analyze what the general population does, it's not THAT far apart from what Wai people do, except their (bigger) meals are quite a bit bigger than ours.

Lol

[RRM]

It's got nothing to do with quantity of fructose, that's just what fructose does period.

In human biochemistry quantity always makes a lot of difference. Substances that are
beneficial in tiny doses, may be toxic in somewhat larger doses and non-toxic
substances may elicit opposite responses depending on their quantity.
The reason why they use high-fructose sweetener, is because lower quantities of
fructose does not have the same effect.

From the very first link that you posted:

suppression of ghrelin was significantly less pronounced after high fructose meals (verus high glucose meals"

So, of course it matters what the amount is.
It also does not say at all that

Fructose basically knocks out satiety hormones

Ssuppression was just "significantly less pronounced".

]

In a fruit based diet, there is also plenty of glucose present, which does cause satiety.

High fructose corn syrup is 50% glucose. That's not alot? Same as table sugar

Not true. Table sugar is sucrose, a disaccharide of fructose and glucose.
There is an essential diffference in between glucose, fructose and sucrose regarding their influence on satiety hormones.

]

Basically its about keeping your blood glucose level up all the time, so that you never experience hunger, and always feel energetic.

Big meals release energy over time more slowly, creating the same effect.

Not the same.
Some of the ingested carbs will be stored as bodyfat, and utilizing bodyfat does not make you feel as energetic as consuming simple carbs.
It is also known that immediately after a big meal lots of people feel tired or even sleepy.
After consuming a big meal you get bigger swings in blood glucose, insulin etc.

don't you think only being able to drink juice would slaughter anyone's caloric intake and appetite? lol

Well, there is somebody who claims differently.
30% of the available carbs in OJ is free fructose. And this person claims that:

Fructose basically knocks out satiety hormones making you feel hungry all the time

According to this person, "that's just what fructose does period".

[RRM]

I'll leave the "pretending to know what I'm talking about gig" to you.

Please refrain from personal attacks.
We are not attacking you, we use reasoning, not personal attacks.
Please.

[sungvimil]

B-Rad wrote:

So you found studies showing people consuming fructose then having a meal with less calories in an attempt to prove eating fructose causes a decreased caloric intake overall? Nice job broski.

It´s a joke, right?
If according to YOU fructose knocks out satiety hormones, please explain how on earth can fructose cause decreased caloric intake?

Btw, that actually supports my postulation as the more fructose they'll consume the more meals they'll probably be having

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18627777

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1938 ... d_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18257753

Ehrr????¿¿¿!!!!
The studies show the opposite. How can they be having more meals when in fact their caloric intake was significantly reduced after fructose consumption vs. other carbs???

I could also post the dozens of studies that display altered serum lipid and triglyceride levels with increased fructose consumption. But I'll leave the "pretending to know what I'm talking about gig" to you.

Please post them. And not animal studies, post human studies done in metabolic wards, not from obese individuas fed fructose vs. glucose on top of their crappy diet. And I also posted other studies showing benefits of fructose in HUMANS, that you didn´t address. If fructose is so bad explain why it benefits diabetic people and why the review I posted concludes this:
¨This review
explores the effects of dietary fructose on lipid metabolism in
humans, with the conclusion that the data so far do not support any
significant specific adverse effect of fructose apart from its energy
content. A small amount of fructose may even improve glucose
tolerance, and studies to date on diabetic subjects indicate that
isocaloric replacement of some glucose-based carbohydrates with
fructose may improve metabolic control¨

See how QUANTITY does in fact matter??

[johndela1]

b-rad,

I know you told me you have followed the diet. Please to no infer anything other that what is stated (I am not implying anything else than my direct obvious question).

What did a typical day's food intake look like for you? I'm curious to how you followed the diet. If the ideas here are correct you should have experienced all this for your self already. How strictly did you follow the diet and for how long?

[B-Rad]

In human biochemistry quantity always makes alot of difference. Substances that are beneficial in tiny doses, may be toxic in somewhat larger doses and non-toxic
substances may elicit opposite responses depending on their quantity.
The reason why they use high-fructose sweetener, is because lower quantities of
fructose does not have the same effect.

So, of course it matters what the amount is.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... /89/6/2963

"Blood samples were collected every 30–60 min for 24 h from 12 normal-weight women on 2 randomized days during which the subjects consumed three meals containing 55, 30, and 15% of total kilocalories as carbohydrate, fat, and protein, respectively, with 30% of kilocalories as either a fructose-sweetened [high fructose (HFr)] or glucose-sweetened [high glucose (HGl)] beverage. Meals were isocaloric in the two treatments."

Ironically 30% fructose just like your OJ.

Table sugar is sucrose, a disaccharide of fructose and glucose. There is an essential diffference in between glucose, fructose and sucrose regarding their influence on satiety hormones.

No there isn't

In mammals, sucrose is readily digested in the stomach into its component sugars, by acidic hydrolysis. This step is performed by a glycoside hydrolase, which catalyzes the hydrolysis of sucrose to the monosaccharides glucose and fructose. Glucose and fructose are rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream in the small intestine.

Not the same.
Some of the ingested carbs will be stored as bodyfat, and utilizing bodyfat does not make you feel as energetic as consuming simple carbs.
It is also known that immediately after a big meal lots of people feel tired or even sleepy.
After consuming a big meal you get bigger swings in blood glucose, insulin etc.

Glycogen almost never stores as bodyfat except in caloric excess. Only when glycogen stores are full... which is basically never.

And consuming monosaccharides causes bigger spikes in insulin and blood glucose as opposed to complex carbs or even whole fruits

don't you think only being able to drink juice would slaughter anyone's caloric intake and appetite? lol

According to this person, "that's just what fructose does period".

Another rediculous extrapolation achieved from taking statements out of context

Please refrain from personal attacks.
We are not attacking you, we use reasoning, not personal attacks.
Please.

It seems that people who talk about fructose being bad don´t bother to check more info.

straight fraudin