"Ketogenic" metabolism

[sunwukong]

My personal experience with a low carb diet was very good. My skin cleared up as quickly as on the wai diet, if not a little quicker. I was eating mainly

bacon (very lightly cooked, seared both sides)
egg (lightly fried)
cream
Natural yogurt (high fat)
Chicken (cooked)
Sashimi (Mainly salmon)
Beef (Scotch and Eyefillet blue rare)
Brazil nuts

I did not lose any hair nor have any energy issues. I believe that if one has altered one's metabolism to thrive on this type of diet at least once before, the body remembers and there is very little time lag between going cold turkey on carbohydrates and switching over.

However, in hindsight, I would suggest that a high protein diet as outlined above would constitute quite a load on mineral stores, as the body must maintain blood PH levels through the sacrifice of important minerals like calcium and magnesium ect. I'm no expert, but the PH change and mineral deficiency probably had something to do with the hair loss.

I have read that it is not necessary to fast to gain the longevity increasing benefits and that simply lowering calorie consumption to 70% of normal is sufficient to achieve a similar change in one's hormone profile.

I guess what I have to say after reading RRM's testimonials on his/her very low protein tolerance is that we all have very different metabolisms. I guess that's why medical science isn't really a science at all. When the same input applied to different people achieves different results, it fails science's most basic tenet.

[Jodiat]

Im not sure on the low carb idea. I tried it and it was bad news for my acne. This could be a fat or cooked protein issue and I never really found out.
I seem to need sugars and protein but my protein has to be limited as my skin is like RRMs. I did like some parts of low carbing the idea of not being bloated and my energy was never too high infact it felt too low, struggling to get through a workout for example. After so many experiments I still have not figured my body out. I have learned alot but never enough. I kinda wish I took Accutane years ago just to see if it worked and never came back. Flip side is ive learnt and maybe saved myself from a worse problem I could have developed.

[RRM]

My skin cleared up as quickly as on the wai diet, if not a little quicker. I was eating mainly bacon (very lightly cooked, seared both sides), egg (lightly fried) ...

Is your skin still clear?
If so, thats what happens in most acne sufferers; the acne automatically goes away with time.
If not: try the strict diet, and you will see how it keeps you clear.

we all have very different metabolisms.

We actually dont.
The metabolism are the same.
Only the levels of activity and sensitivity are different.

[Rivera]

Fruit was a seasonal luxury

Not in Africa, where different kind of ruits were available all year around.

Which ones?

The Wai diet provokes a weaker insulin response than a normal high-carb diet, but how do you know if that frequent insulin release, although it is small, is healthy in the long run?

Because its lower and precisely what it takes; not too much, not too little.

It's something too I was wondering. It's lower but all day long; so how do we know it doesn't need "resting"?

RRM, in the wild, how are we supposed to get the fats at the same time than sugars? I mean we don't have our avocado/olive oil close to us. Do we really need that amount of fats when eating a fruit (I know fruits contain some fats but in very low amounts).

[RRM]

Fruit was a seasonal luxury

Not in Africa, where different kind of ruits were available all year around.

Which ones?

Maybe you are misunderstanding:
Im not saying that a particular fruit is available all year around,
but that different fruits in combination are available all year around
(different fruits, different seasons, but at every time there is always some fruit available.)

The Wai diet provokes a weaker insulin response than a normal high-carb diet, but how do you know if that frequent insulin release, although it is small, is healthy in the long run?

Because its lower and precisely what it takes; not too much, not too little.

It's something too I was wondering. It's lower but all day long; so how do we know it doesn't need "resting"?

Insulin is a hormone. Hormones never rest. Its just that their levels fluctuate.
Insulin is well known because of diabetes. In diabetes, the secretion of insulin is not, or no longer,
in line with the need for storing excess energy in the blood (as glycogen or fat).
The adequate release of insulin to be able to store excess energy, is always healthy.
In this case, 'resting' would be a flaw, hindering the storage of excess energy.

Do we really need that amount of fats when eating a fruit (I know fruits contain some fats but in very low amounts).

No, it just that fats help you to stabilize the blood sugar level if you are not so good at doing that yourself
(by carefully and adequately listening to your energy needs).

[Rivera]

Maybe you are misunderstanding:
Im not saying that a particular fruit is available all year around,
but that different fruits in combination are available all year around
(different fruits, different seasons, but at every time there is always some fruit available.)

Yes, I didn't understand that. But still, which ones?

No, it just that fats help you to stabilize the blood sugar level if you are not so good at doing that yourself
(by carefully and adequately listening to your energy needs).

So if we don't need help for this, what would be the recommended amount or ratio of fats per day?

[RRM]

Maybe you are misunderstanding:
Im not saying that a particular fruit is available all year around,
but that different fruits in combination are available all year around
(different fruits, different seasons, but at every time there is always some fruit available.)

Yes, I didn't understand that. But still, which ones?

Bananas, mangoes, oranges, avocadoes etc etc

No, it just that fats help you to stabilize the blood sugar level if you are not so good at doing that yourself
(by carefully and adequately listening to your energy needs).

So if we don't need help for this, what would be the recommended amount or ratio of fats per day?

As little as you want.
I just add some drops of OO to my OJ to prevent acid reflux / acid burn,
and I eat avocadoes because i love them, but sometimes i dont eat them for days.
Then all my fat comes from fish and yolks.
But im a physically very active guy, so that i need very little fat.
If you are not so much physically active, you may feel better consuming more fat.

[RRM]

Ketosis is the metabolic state which resembles most a fasting state, where aging biomarkers like insulin and blood glucose are improved
... After some weeks on a ketogenic diet the brain fullfils its requirements only 25% from glucose, and the rest from ketone bodies.

And where do the ketone bodies come from?
Protein and fat. (including protein from your muscles)

No. Ketone bodies aren´t derived from protein, that´s a common misconception seen in the medical establishment too.

Yes, they come from incomplete break down of fatty acids, but also from ketogenic amino acids. Leucine and lysine are strictly ketogenic amino acids. Phenylalanine, tyrosine, isoleucine and tryptophane are both glucogenic and ketogenic. The rest is glucogenic.

Some amino acids have glucogenic properties; I already know that. But they actually don´t have an effect on ketosis.

Not some. Most.

"A very low-carbohydrate/high-fat/high-protein Atkins-type diet is marginally ketogenic"
Mobbs C et al - Free full text
"The absence of dietary carbohydrates per se does not induce ketosis. Low-Carb-High-Fat diets must be high in fat, but also low in protein contents to be clearly ketogenic".
Bielohuby M et al - Full free text

[panacea]

Low protein isn't required to enter ketosis on a ketogenic diet, but moderate or low protein is. Similarly, the timing of eating protein matters. Eating a lot of protein in one sitting may throw you out of ketosis even if you only eat a moderate amount that day in total. Excess amounts of protein are converted into glucose, moderate or low amounts are not. Also, some excess protein being converted into glucose, doesn't automatically throw you out of ketosis, it has to be a considerable amount.

Ketodog was ahead of his time. I didn't even find out about ketogenic diets/ketosis from this thread, but from random health searches. 2007, guy was ahead of everybody. Are you still around ketodog?

[RRM]

Ketodog was ahead of his time.

Thinking that glucogenic amino acids have no effect on ketosis...

[panacea]

Pretty sure he was talking in general terms and based on an already keto-adapted individual, but probably he and I don't have backgrounds in medical terminology

but it was so many years ago, the fact he knew about this stuff at all is amazing

[panacea]

[RRM]

What is the purpose of the posted text?

[panacea]

To highlight how misleading these statements are:




The truth is that once keto-adapted, caloric restricted ketogenic diets aren't any more "protein wasting" than other caloric restricted diets, you can bulk up on a ketogenic diet as well, some body builders eat a ketogenic diet, and a ketogenic diet is shown to be protein-sparing for a catabolic state. The idea that a ketogenic diet wastes your muscles away to a meaningful degree is outdated information.

[RRM]

The idea that a ketogenic diet wastes your muscles away to a meaningful degree is outdated information.

Not if this ketogenic diet lets you stay in a 'starvation mode' 24/7.
In a 24/7 starvation mode, there is a lack of energy 24/7, which eats away your fat depots, the damaged organelles in your cells, and .... your muscles.