Why are fruits so much better than veggies?

[Kasper]

Ha ha, your point is that we never eat ripe oranges!

True. That is what I'm trying to say.

We advise against eating unripe fruits.
If the fruit tastes ripe to me, its ripe.

If that is your definition of ripe, than we have a problem.
We don't have any scientific data on fruit that taste ripe to RRM (opposed to fruit that doesn't taste ripe to RRM).
So please, stick to the scientific definition of ripe fruit, than we can continue a scientific discussion.
Instead of speculating of the amount of anti-nutrients in fruits that taste ripe to RRM.

Besides that, I think RRM would say this to you(RRM vs RRM):

We need a rational definition for ripe fruit.
If we are not rational, we have to fall back on believes, traditions and hearsay etc,
and i dont think thats an option.
We can't base the definition of ripe fruit on something as subjective as taste.
There are too many confusing elements for your body, regarding taste and appetite.

Maybe you listen to your own words ?

[Kasper]

They cannot taste it because of what they are accustomed to.
You can tell them to listen, but they cannot hear.
The same goes for you.
I can tell you to listen, but you cannot hear.
For that you need to be on the strict diet first, for a long enough period.

What will he hear ? That he actually disgust vegetables ?

[RRM]

Disgust is a big word.
The longer you are on the strict diet, the better you get at making distinctions.
You get better at noticing the subtle differences.

[RRM]

So please, stick to the scientific definition of ripe fruit, than we can continue a scientific discussion.

Ok, so what is that definition that will helps us to tell whether the oranges that RRM eats are ripe?
Sticking to scientific facts:
Pectin is broken down during ripening of fruits.
So, pectin decomposition by enzymes (polygalacturonases in the case of pectin) is a sign of ripening, right?
So, all we need to know is whether there is polygalacturonase in picked oranges, or not.

[overkees]

I could taste the difference between a glass of fresh orange juice and a glass of half fresh orange juice mixed with pasteurized orange juice. If that ain't taste skill I don't know what you're talking about.

My taste was always superb and I was able to pick out all of the herbs used in one's cookings. Even though I ate a lot of spicy food and smoked over a pack a day. My taste now is even more incredible. I can even taste which mineral water I'm drinking if I know what kind of blends I can choose from (tested it because people didn't believe me). I can taste pesticide residues on apple/grapes.

What you find to taste good is so awfully subjective. And yes: Carrots give me enormous pleasure and they taste amazing. And I really look forward to the few days in the week I get to drink it. Much more than OJ.

[RRM]

II can even taste which mineral water I'm drinking if I know what kind of blends I can choose from

Thats impressive, indeed.
Im sure your taste is superb, but i also think it would get even better if you would be on the strict diet for a prolonged period of time.

[overkees]

I find it very annoying that the title has been changed of the topic. It is suggesting that I am asking the question that fruits are better than veggies, which is blatantly false. I never suggested that veggies were better. My original title name was Why are fruit so much better than veggies?. In that title on itself I already admitted that in general (in an optimal health state) fruits are better than veggies. So, why the hell change it?

Everything in this topic still indicates that you are still not getting the point. My taste is perfect and therefore it can taste what is good for me and what is bad for me and therefore I can say that carrot juice provides me more than orange juice. It might change, but that's the whole friggin point. There is no static optimal diet. It is a fault assumption. Everyone needs different things at different health states. And if you learn to read the taste signals instead of the addictory ones you will taste what is good for you at that time.

BUT, I still can compare carrot for instance with some fruits and the carrot will beat alot of them. So it is just insane therefore that it isnt included in the wai diet as every fruit is included and even the vegetable fruits are included. And that's what this topic is really about:
The veggies win in some cases of fruits, although every fruit is allowed. Though veggies are given alot of discredit. And I'm trying to shed a little light on them that they deserve.

The problem with the wai diet in my opinion is that it claims to be optimal. But every individual needs different things at different moments and therefore a theoretically optimal diet is rubbish and I would like that we can find some common grounds that will reach more people. Because I don't get your motivation. You want people to get better right? That's why you brought this online, right? Then why stop with this quest and only defend the wai diet as it was without even willing to look for ways to improve it for other people aswell? That's what I'm trying to do. I'm not attacking the wai diet. I'm trying to bring a nuance in this claimed 'optimality'. Health is a dynamic concept, not a static one.

And yes, in some cases certain health protocols and unwai food products will help alot with regaining good health in a super fast way that is much healthier than relying on the wai way and waiting for years for the body to heal this issues on itself. This is very naive. And stupid, because all the toxins and pathogens in the body keep on doing more and more harm every day you wait.

I speak from experience: Fixed my athlete's foot, reduced sleep from +12 hours to 7 hours, fixed my sinus/throat issues (swollen tonsils) and feeling energetic all the time without the energy crashes I experienced on wai if I didn't have enough food. Totally fixed my gut too with a health protocol, no signs of soiling anymore, regular stools and although I eat alot of fiber I don't experience excessive flatulence. Wai didn't help me in any of the above issues. Wai only increased my energy levels initially and cured alot of my old addictions and learned me to listen. Very important things indeed, but alone it is not nearly enough.

[RRM]

I find it very annoying that the title has been changed of the topic. It is suggesting that I am asking the question that fruits are better than veggies, which is blatantly false. I never suggested that veggies were better. My original title name was Why are fruit so much better than veggies?. In that title on itself I already admitted that in general (in an optimal health state) fruits are better than veggies. So, why the hell change it?

Actually, the original title was: "Why are fruits so much better?"
Better than what?
So, i changed it.
Why taking away "so much"?
Because i like short titles. And the "so much" seemed kind of pointless,
and sounded a bit whiny in my ears. As in: "why do you think you are so much better than everybody else?"
Since i like factual titles, i changed it,
but if the "so much" is so dear to you, i will change it in: "Why are fruits so much better than veggies?"

Everything in this topic still indicates that you are still not getting the point. My taste is perfect

Ok, if you think so.
Look, if you want to eat veggies, go ahead.
The Wai diet is not a bible. You can do whatever you like.
You can believe whatever you like. All i am saying is that the Wai diet should represent the optimal diet.
Nothing more, nothing less.
We have been planning to get rid of the munch food stuff; it just takes some time to edit everything properly.

every individual needs different things at different moments and therefore a theoretically optimal diet is rubbish

The Wai diet is based on the idea of the optimal diet for everyone.
Its not about medication.
If you have a specific ailment that requires medication,
you first need a proper diagnosis and then you can get drugs from the doctor,
or do it yourself, by eating / ingesting specific plants for their medicational properties.
Thats not diet, but medication.
The Wai diet is a diet, and not about medication.
With this diet we try to ingest as little ingredients that may interfere with normal body functioning.
Medicinal properties in plants that may cure specific ailments will interfere with normal body functioning.

I would like that we can find some common grounds that will reach more people.

Thats something entirely different.
Thats trying to make the diet more popular by making it less restrictive.
Again, this diet is about the optimal diet. You can be as (little) strict as you want.

why stop with this quest and only defend the wai diet as it was without even willing to look for ways to improve it for other people aswell?

You want it to be improved regarding 2 aspects:
1) more medicinal properties included
2) more popular by less restrictive
In my view, those 2 are not improvements, but the opposite.

Health is a dynamic concept, not a static one.

Exactly, and that is why you can never include medicinal properties and let it be healthy for everyone.
If you are sick, you first need a proper diagnosis and then targeted medication, drugs or herbal / natural.
You cannot mix optimal-for-everybody with drugs (natural or synthetic).

all the toxins and pathogens in the body keep on doing more and more harm every day you wait.

The body can detoxify toxins (such as HCA) and destroy pathogens (such as a virus, hostile bacteria), unless overwhelmed.
All we need to do, is minimize the intake and sleep enough (to boost your defense).
If there is something your body cannot properly battle, you need medication (natural or synthetic),
but again, then you first need a proper diagnosis, and not self medication through diet without knowing whats wrong exactly,
which is not about you but about people on a diet that purposely includes medicinal properties.

If you fixed stuff, thats great for you, but doesnt justify changing the diet to make it more popular or include more medicinal properties.

[overkees]

Your body can't win on it's own from athlete's foot or big cavities or large intestinal parasites to name a few. You NEED medication for that.

Im not recommending to eat tons of spinache to everybody. I'm trying to let you see that the body will ask for medication by saying something tastes good (given the fact that your taste is not ruined). Because the faster it gets rid off a disease the less damage is done and so the less need for repair. Lingering on for ages with infections that your body can't heal is just plain silly. Your body only needs to clean up more and more every day you wait.

But that's the whole thing. You can't say this is better than that because every situation is totally different. Tell people with systemic candida and cancer to eat strictly fruits. That's like saying: swallow this suicide pill. But you seem to have a zealous conviction to this 'optimal' diet and just simply ignore these kind of things. You fail to spot the inconsistencies in this diet for people with certain impaired health conditions and you can't back it up with any scientific 'facts' to even justify your thinking that these things will heal with just doing a wai diet.

[RRM]

You can't say this is better than that because every situation is totally different.

In that view there is no optimal diet,
and then discussing such a (Wai) diet is pointless.

you seem to have a zealous conviction to this 'optimal' diet and just simply ignore these kind of things. You fail to spot the inconsistencies in this diet for people with certain impaired health conditions and you can't back it up with any scientific 'facts' to even justify your thinking that these things will heal with just doing a wai diet.

Maybe you failed to read my previous post.

If there is something your body cannot properly battle, you need medication (natural or synthetic)

Shall we continue to repeat ourselves, or shall we stop this discussion?

[Kasper]

Shall we continue to repeat ourselves, or shall we stop this discussion?

Maybe you two could continue this discussion in an other kind of style.
To me it seems like overkees wants to have a dialectic, and RRM wants to have a debate.
I think this can lead to frustration on both sides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G_Kk7GX0Oc
Daniel Vitalis talks about this in this youtube video at 2:30 and at 12:45:

"A debate is two sides, both sure they're right, battling linguesticly to prove they are right. Neither one willing to change their position.
I would rather have a dialectic with you. That is where two people want to get to the truth. They don't care about their position, tough they argument passionately. The point is to put all the evidence on the table and get to the most true thing. "

"A dialectic is where to parties come toghether, to discuss with arguments, passionately and with facts, both willing to change their way of view, if they come to a greater truth together. That is a different than a debate, in a debate person A thinks this, person B thinks this, they go back and forward, but no resolution will ever come."

[Kasper]

In that view there is no optimal diet,
and then discussing such a (Wai) diet is pointless.

In mathematics we encouter a lot of those kind of problems.
You define something, in this case: define the wai diet, as the most optimal diet.

After you defined something, you are going to check if this definition is usefull.
Is there even a diet which is optimal ?
What do you mean with optimal?
Do you mean with optimal on average the most optimal diet.
Maybe an diet is on average optimal, but for 95% it's optimal and 5% dies within a year.
Just saying something.

To me this wai diet doesn't seem well defined.
And I don't think you look at this yourself either.
You say that for inactive people it's better to eat more fat.
So for inactive people, you adivse an different diet than for active people.
But both follow the wai diet.
I think a more usefull definition would be: the most optimal diet for a given person

[dime]

you seem to have a zealous conviction to this 'optimal' diet and just simply ignore these kind of things. You fail to spot the inconsistencies in this diet for people with certain impaired health conditions and you can't back it up with any scientific 'facts' to even justify your thinking that these things will heal with just doing a wai diet.

Maybe you failed to read my previous post.

If there is something your body cannot properly battle, you need medication (natural or synthetic)

I'm confused a bit too, it's like overkees repeated what you said..

Your body can't win on it's own from athlete's foot or big cavities or large intestinal parasites to name a few. You NEED medication for that.

So I see the problematic question here as: do we need medicines when we're healthy and there's obviously no need for it? I hope it's pretty obvious that the answer is no.
The only problem is that it's not always so clear as to what classifies as medicines. Veggies seem more medicinal than fruits.

[overkees]

Okay, I will try to make it all as clear as possible. Because I still don't get the impression you're getting my point reading your comments again.

So I see the problematic question here as: do we need medicines when we're healthy and there's obviously no need for it? I hope it's pretty obvious that the answer is no.
The only problem is that it's not always so clear as to what classifies as medicines. Veggies seem more medicinal than fruits.

If you put it that way: Of course I will agree that a healthy person does not need medication. Therefore I also said that the wai diet is probably your best bet of an optimal diet (if that optimality is well defined) given the fact that you are completely healthy. However, you make some preassumptions about what healthy is and what medication is and therefore you are making the question way too polar. Like it's a debate of veggies vs fruit. Which it isn't

Now back to what I'm trying to say. Let me make it very, very clear:
1) The wai diet is about eating raw foods with the highest nutrient : antinutrient ratio. To prevent the interference of restoration processes and diagnosis of the body itself. Let's call it the ranking of foods.
2) Logically, we can conclude that alot of fruits fall under the above defined statements. They are offered for consumption by the plant and 'want to be eaten'. They ripen or start fermenting/decaying and as this takes longer the anitnutrients decrease even further.
3) However, some 'veggies' beat some of the fruits with the above defined ranking of the foods. Such as carrot vs apples or carrots vs pineapples (and carrots beats alot of other fruits too). Therefore these shouldn't be excluded from the diet because that just doesn't make sense.
4) The wai diet is also about listening to the body and what it likes best. Only picking foods that have been identified under the above defined 'ranking' of the foods. So taste and satisfaction are key.

Therefore we can conclude from your point of the 'optimality' of the wai diet, that you should exclude ALOT of fruits if you are not agreeing upon allowing carrots in the diet. You should only eat sweet oranges and tangerines and soft mangoes and fully ripened bananas. Totally organic of course. All other stuff is not optimal or a lot less optimal and should be excluded from the diet.
I hope I made myself totally clear and would love to hear your response.

This is my most important point. After this is clear let's discuss on the body's abillity to decide on what medication it wants given the fact that you are listening. And again that nasty concept of what health really is will of course come back again. And I hope you will define for us what health is in your view, RRM, because our definitions totally not compare. I asked it a few times but you never gave an answer.. I'm also really curious about dime's definition.

[dime]

Wild carrots are toxic. I've not heard of toxic wild fruits. But indeed maybe the modern carrots are better than some fruits. It is hard to figure this out, I'm not sure how did you come to the conclusion that carrots are better than apples. So I think the reasoning that is applied in the wai diet is by logic, as you said fruits want to be eaten so it's easy to conclude that they would be better in general.

Since you're talking about, taste, smell, etc. you may want to look at the instincto diet. It is also an all raw diet including animal foods but also veggies and anything else raw that may taste fine to you. The way you eat is you go to the food, smell around a bit or taste maybe and decide what to eat based on that. Than you stop as soon as you get an instinctive stop signal from the body. Note that juices, oils, and anything else that is processed is forbidden.

So there's already such a diet, and I don't see the point in turning the wai diet into an instincto/anapsology diet.