Vonderplanitz - primal diet (& some Frisian)

[summerwave]

ah, but I do not understand the comment that this fellow in the photo 'looks puffy; swollen...."--- (that is, what the inference could be in stating this...).

He eats a completely raw diet, it seems, and the amount of protein cannot be that high. Even though it is raw and therefore not disturbing to an acne condition, from what I have read he eats many calories in the form of fat, lowering the overall protein intake.

Is the diet ketogenic (because it is based on raw fats and protein), and somehow this alone causes puffiness or water retention? I have not understood this comment when I've returned to this thread each time.

[summerwave]

Perhaps I'm wondering if you feel the dairy fat in the diet has hormones that cause water retention...

Or if the raw meats he eats have hormones as well, and these are what is causing the water retention.

Or maybe it is just kind of a devilish comment

[fictor]

Personally I do not think Wonderplanitz looks very puffy at all, but from a Wai point of view, the guy eats too much protein, even when it is all raw.
Also, too much minerals, as he consumes a lot of milk and advocates eating clay as a mineral supplement, and high mineral waters. Then we have the anti nutrients in dairy and vegetables (which he mostly consumes as juices).

The diet is not ketogenic, as he eats fruits and vegetables, and lots of raw honey.

Never the less, I think the primal diet is way better than most people eat, and the guy have many good points in his book, even though he cant actually back up most of his claims with any scientific evidence.

[summerwave]

oh yes; you are right; and I think it is probably a question of minerals...


He eats vegetables juiced only... and very, very little fruit. It is mostly raw fat and protein...I can feature how he might have to use protein for blood sugar though (redundant protein being used as sugars, just because there is so much of it-- and that is how it gets stored). In addition, I do not think he emphasizes many small meals a day-- he eats larger meals with these foods.

[fictor]

oh yes; you are right; and I think it is probably a question of minerals...

Yes, minerals. But even raw protein can end up in the lymph and then the skin, causing water retention, which in turn can cause puffiness or acne.

He eats vegetables juiced only... and very, very little fruit. It is mostly raw fat and protein

In interviews and articles Aajonus often writes about that one should eat little fruit, but in his book (WWTL) he talks about drinking orange juice, eating bananas, papaya, mango and actually states that what his craving tells him to eat the most is meat and fruits.

I can feature how he might have to use protein for blood sugar

I am not so sure about this, as he eats a lot of honey, some fruit, berries, vegetable juice, milk and even some bread and potatoes. This should be plenty of carbs to keep your bloodsugar up, without having to use protein for energy.

In addition, I do not think he emphasizes many small meals a day-- he eats larger meals with these foods.

Large from a Wai point of view, but he states in his book that many small meals leads to better nutrient absorption.

[summerwave]

This is what he says he eats:

For each individual the proper ratio of raw animal products may vary. Experience has shown me that over time raw animal products produce the calmest, most balanced human nature with excellent mental clarity.
For the last few years my raw animal products consumption has been approximately 80% by volume of my diet. I restrict high fructose fruit to one a day and almost always eat it with a high fat food such as unsalted raw cheese, raw butter, raw cream, raw milk, raw egg(s), avocado and/or raw coconut.
As an example of the extreme, the Eskimo ate 99% raw animal products and lived free of degenerative disease before white men introduced cooking cauldrons, breads and refined sugar to them. By several accounts of world travelers and explorers they considered the Eskimo the happiest of all races.
Their first case of dental decay was 50 years after cauldrons, breads and refined sugar were introduced. The dental caries only existed among those who ate some or all of white man's food. Cancer never occurred among primitive Eskimo.

I resisted a predominantly animal products diet for fear I would feel dull and sluggish because of the low enzyme and mineral content of feed given to farm animals. When I finally attempted it I felt dull and sluggish.
As a vitamin, enzyme and mineral supplement I introduced 1 quart a day of raw vegetable juice divided into 5 or 6 portions, often adding 1 ounce raw cream, raw milk or raw coconut cream to each portion, or ate a small amount of unsalted raw cheese. The juice perfectly balanced me and prevented the craving for high fructose fruit that resulted from eating animal products.
I avoid the high fructose fruit consumption because it causes manic thought and lack of regular clarity. I eat from 3/4 - 3 lbs of meat almost daily (that is, red meat and/or seafood and/or fowl).

The above is from http://drbass.com/aajonus.html

It does not seem high in fruit sugars or honey....

[fictor]

As I said, in various interviews and articles, Aajonus reccomends to eat very little sweet fruits, no fruit juices, and does not even mention honey.

In his book (We Want To Live), on the other hand, he indicates that he eats several fruits a day, he eats carb-containing fruit-veggies (avocado, tomtoes) and drinks orange juice. This comes in addition to the carbs in milk, bread, potatoes and honey (wich he says he eats a lot of).

Of course, his personal diet could have changed since he wrote the book.

[summerwave]

Yes-- I think for him sourdough/unyeasted plain white-flour bread is one of his munch foods (in his diet-- I am not using the words 'munch food' to imply resemblance of his diet to the Wai diet at all...)

He says he eats it sparingly with large amounts of raw butter, which he feels is somehow protective of its bad qualities. Perhaps the same is true of potatoes. In any case, so much meat, even raw, seems hard on the kidneys (puffiness?)

[fictor]

In any case, so much meat, even raw, seems hard on the kidneys (puffiness?)

That I think we aggree about

[johndela1]

Is there any evidence to support the idea that eating a lot of meat is bad for the kidneys? There is some evidence that suggests we evolved eating meat. If the meat is high in fat, it doesn't necessarily have to be high protein.

Here is an article that suggests high levels of meat are not bad for the kidneys:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art14944.asp


I've heard a lot of arguments on both sides of this and have never come to any conclusion.

[RRM]

What is true is that all predators sleep a lot. All the meat they eat contains a lot of protein (fat is a rare commodity in nature), and all that nitrogen has to be processed; hence a lot of sleeping.
Herbivores sleep very little.

[summerwave]

Is there a substantial difference between a ketogenic diet that draws mostly on fat (with little but adequate protein, and a few carbohydrates) and one that draws primarily on protein and to a lesser extent fat?

When I first read about the Vonderplanitz diet, I wondered this, as for awhile I was under the incorrect impression that it was relatively low protein but extremely high in [raw, animal-source] fat.

[RRM]

Is there a substantial difference between a ketogenic diet that draws mostly on fat (with little but adequate protein, and a few carbohydrates) and one that draws primarily on protein and to a lesser extent fat?

There is.
The mostly fat based does not cause a nitrogen overload, but there is no balance between fats and sugars. The one primarily based on protein has a good sugars / fats balance (amino acids are converted in both), but causes a nitrogen overload.

[summerwave]

I see...

I have another question; let's see if I understand:

If you add more carbohydrates to a fat-based ketogenic diet-- which would balance this more in terms of fat/sugar--

would you then be moving toward; at the brink of coming out of ketosis? That is, by pushing up the carbohydrate ratio in fat-based ketogenic diet that included some carbohydrate, you would be close to transforming to glucose-based metabolism, and no longer be ketogenic...

[RRM]

Yes.