Diuretics to prevent acne?

[B-Rad]

jw if diuretic use will allow you to consume more protein without breaking out. The reason i need this is that it is currently impossible for me to maintain my current level of muscle mass while consuming the low amount of protein i need to keep me from breaking out.

products such as green tea, apple cider vinegar, dandelion root and the prescription acne drug spironolactone are all diuretics and known for their ability to reduce or prevent acne

[RRM]

jw if diuretic use will allow you to consume more protein without breaking out.

Maybe just a little bit, but it will not prevent new acne.
The extra protein partially ends up in the skin temporarily any way. Maybe the diuretics will decrease the length of that stay, but they cannot prevent it from happening at all.
Also, taking diuretcs has an adverse effects on your health, as you are messing with your metabolism, which your body will correct (overcompensate) for sooner or later.

The reason i need this is that it is currently impossible for me to maintain my current level of muscle mass while consuming the low amount of protein i need to keep me from breaking out.

What might help you is eating very high-quality-protein foods only, as that increases the effects of the protein.
If you could find liquid free methionine, that would help you a lot, as that substantially increases overall protein quality of the food already eaten.

[B-Rad]

Maybe just a little bit, but it will not prevent new acne..

how wont it prevent new acne if it prevents your body from retaining water?

Also, taking diuretcs has an adverse effects on your health, as you are messing with your metabolism, which your body will correct (overcompensate) for sooner or later..

why would your body try to correct it if the excess fluid isnt supposed to be stored there anyway. The way i see it diuretics would almost help regulate it in a way by taking the burden off your system to flush the excessive fluid out

[RRM]

how wont it prevent new acne if it prevents your body from retaining water?

It doesnt prevent water retention. It drains water from your body while you retain too much water. So, water retention is caused and subsequently (partially) eliminated. In the meantime new acne can be caused.

why would your body try to correct it if the excess fluid isnt supposed to be stored there anyway.

Because it is not fighting the results, but the direct effects of antidiuretics.
If you increase the level of diuretic hormones, that is what the body will counteract.

The way i see it diuretics would almost help regulate it in a way by taking the burden off your system to flush the excessive fluid out

Thats like thinking that chemotherapy helps to regulate cells in your body when you have cancer.
It doesnt. What chemotherapy does, is destroying cells in your body. If you have cancer, that may have positive effects if the treatment is targeted adequately. However, chemotherapy does not turn cancer cells into normal cells. In other words, it does not regulate normal cell growth.
The same is true for diurectics; they dont take away the cause, they just fight the symptoms.

[B-Rad]

sorry for delayed response

It doesnt prevent water retention. It drains water from your body while you retain too much water. So, water retention is caused and subsequently (partially) eliminated. In the meantime new acne can be caused.

Partially eliminated? after the intial stage these drugs are in your system once you keep taking them. Most commonly they inhibit sodium reabsorption or directly inhibit aldosterone which is a sodium conserving hormone your body pumps out when your levels get too low

Because it is not fighting the results, but the direct effects of antidiuretics.
If you increase the level of diuretic hormones, that is what the body will counteract.

They give diuretics to people with serious kidney and heart problems. I doubt they would be very effective if the body could easily counteract them or somehow build up a resistance to them over time

Thats like thinking that chemotherapy helps to regulate cells in your body when you have cancer.
It doesnt. What chemotherapy does, is destroying cells in your body. If you have cancer, that may have positive effects if the treatment is targeted adequately. However, chemotherapy does not turn cancer cells into normal cells. In other words, it does not regulate normal cell growth.
The same is true for diurectics; they dont take away the cause, they just fight the symptoms.

Yes but diuretics if used properly will probably not have any serious side effects just like chemo wont if used properly or using steriods. And fighting the symptoms in this case doesnt seem so bad anyway retaining water isnt a health risk just makes you look puffy and give u acne

[RRM]

It doesnt prevent water retention. It drains water from your body while you retain too much water. So, water retention is caused and subsequently (partially) eliminated. In the meantime new acne can be caused.

Partially eliminated? after the intial stage these drugs are in your system once you keep taking them. Most commonly they inhibit sodium reabsorption or directly inhibit aldosterone which is a sodium conserving hormone your body pumps out when your levels get too low

Sodium is not the only water-retaining molecule. Its only 1 part of that system. Protein is also part of that system.
So, yes these drugs eliminate sodium caused water retention, but not that part that is caused by protein.

why would your body try to correct it if the excess fluid isnt supposed to be stored there anyway.

Because it is not fighting the results, but the direct effects of antidiuretics.
If you increase the level of diuretic hormones, that is what the body will counteract.

They give diuretics to people with serious kidney and heart problems. I doubt they would be very effective if the body could easily counteract them or somehow build up a resistance to them over time

You ask: why would your body want to correct it?
My answer: because its fighting the effects of the drugs
You say: but these drugs are effective
my answer: im not denying that, but your body will do some 'damage control' anyway, as a external factor is changing your metabolism, which always needs to be counteracted. Of course these drugs are very powerful and effective. thats makes them also dangerous.
what im trying to say is this:
The water retention was not caused because the body could not eliminate sodium, accidentally reuptook too much sodium or because of excessive aldosterone. Its not a malfunction of the body that we need to compensate for by the use of drugs.
Water retention is relative as everybody retains water, but to different extends. Its not that people with acne retain waaay too much water. Just a little water retention is already enough to cause acne if the skin produces much sebum (a combination of factors). Such water retention is within the 'health limits' and therefore does not need to be counteracted by the body.
You want to counteract it as it gives you acne, not for health reasons (compensating for a malfunction).
The problem is that you dont want to eliminate that water retention by eliminating the direct cause (protein or dietary salt), but by fighting the symptoms. In as much as some fat people want to keep on eating hamburgers and they drink diet soda or take diet pills to compensate for that.
And the body doesnt accept this without a fight. It will try hard to counteract the unnatural inhibition of aldosterone. Of course the drugs probably are too powerful so that the aldosterone level WILL go down, but the extra protein will make you still retain some water anyway, because these drugs dont eliminate that aspect.

In as much as overweight is not caused by a lack of diet pills, water retention is not caused by a lack of drugs either.
In both case you may 'succeed' by taking those drugs, but in both cases there will be ill effects and the body will try counteract these drugs.

but diuretics if used properly will probably not have any serious side effects just like chemo wont if used properly or using steriods.

Excuse me????
They ALWAYS have side effects. All of them.
You are messing with your body, big time (water metabolism is essential to all organs), and your body will always try to counteract these drugs. To the extend it may succeed depends on the power of these drugs.

[B-Rad]

Sodium is not the only water-retaining molecule. Its only 1 part of that system. Protein is also part of that system.
So, yes these drugs eliminate sodium caused water retention, but not that part that is caused by protein.

yes but maybe since your retaining less water than you should from the sodium the part retained by the protein will just balance it out and you wont get acne

You ask: why would your body want to correct it?
My answer: because its fighting the effects of the drugs
You say: but these drugs are effective
my answer: im not denying that, but your body will do some 'damage control' anyway, as a external factor is changing your metabolism, which always needs to be counteracted. Of course these drugs are very powerful and effective. thats makes them also dangerous.
what im trying to say is this:
The water retention was not caused because the body could not eliminate sodium, accidentally reuptook too much sodium or because of excessive aldosterone. Its not a malfunction of the body that we need to compensate for by the use of drugs.
Water retention is relative as everybody retains water, but to different extends. Its not that people with acne retain waaay too much water. Just a little water retention is already enough to cause acne if the skin produces much sebum (a combination of factors). Such water retention is within the 'health limits' and therefore does not need to be counteracted by the body.
You want to counteract it as it gives you acne, not for health reasons (compensating for a malfunction).
The problem is that you dont want to eliminate that water retention by eliminating the direct cause (protein or dietary salt), but by fighting the symptoms. In as much as some fat people want to keep on eating hamburgers and they drink diet soda or take diet pills to compensate for that.
And the body doesnt accept this without a fight. It will try hard to counteract the unnatural inhibition of aldosterone. Of course the drugs probably are too powerful so that the aldosterone level WILL go down, but the extra protein will make you still retain some water anyway, because these drugs dont eliminate that aspect.

In as much as overweight is not caused by a lack of diet pills, water retention is not caused by a lack of drugs either.
In both case you may 'succeed' by taking those drugs, but in both cases there will be ill effects and the body will try counteract these drugs

yes that is the problem because 1) i like being able to maintain a very high level of muscle mass which which would be impossible with such a low protein intake (to stay clear i can only eat like 35 grams animal protein a day at which point i start to lose rediculous amounts of muscle) 2) i want to retain as little water as possible for definition and i dont agree with you that people with acne retain the same amount of water as normal maybe some do but i believe it is a combination of your body sucks at utilizing protein and high oil production

so you see it is like a double edged sword for me. My only option seems to be accutane, which i am already on or diuretics if you know any other options i would be grateful to know

sorry if i misled you my goal is not to be the most healthy, live a long life, etc. like most people on here

Excuse me????
They ALWAYS have side effects. All of them.
You are messing with your body, big time (water metabolism is essential to all organs), and your body will always try to counteract these drugs. To the extend it may succeed depends on the power of these drugs.

ok ill give you that one but again my goal is not to be the most healthy person. I think if they give these drugs to elderly people and people with health problems my body should be more than capable of dealing with the effects.

[RRM]

yes but maybe since your retaining less water than you should from the sodium the part retained by the protein will just balance it out and you wont get acne

That may be, but that may ruin your long term health. In old people who they give these drugs to this water balance system is out of wack, and then the drugs are corective. In you the system is not out of wack and the drugs will have adverse effects on this system.
Eventually you may get serious water-retaining effects when you are older.

i like being able to maintain a very high level of muscle mass which which would be impossible with such a low protein intake (to stay clear i can only eat like 35 grams animal protein a day at which point i start to lose rediculous amounts of muscle)

Ok, i understand.
Why dont you use something to decrease your sebum production instead; its less dangerous than messing with your water metabolism system.
Extremely high vitamin B5 intakes seem to be effective.

2) i want to retain as little water as possible for definition

I understand, but did you know that even professional bodybuilders retain quite some water ween contests? Only when the contests are near, they start dehydrating. Thats because if you want to maintain great muscle mass, you cannot escape the cycle of both building muscle mass and retaining water in between contests and subsequently loosing water and muscle mass prior to the contest.
You cannot have both all the time. Its building up (and toning down) and then toning up (and breaking down).

i dont agree with you that people with acne retain the same amount of water as normal

Just look around you. MOST people retain water. If the skinniest people retain water. The people without acne just dont produce much sebum.

i believe it is a combination of your body sucks at utilizing protein and high oil production

If that were true, succesful bodybuilders would never have acne, as you need to utilize protein most effectively to be able to be the biggest.
That however is not the case. Specifically among bodybuilders acne is prevalent.

My only option seems to be accutane, which i am already on or diuretics if you know any other options i would be grateful to know

Megadosis vitamin B5 might probably help you.

my goal is not to be the most healthy, live a long life, etc. like most people on here

I get it. Still i would take that what is the least harmful. (B5, i guess)

I think if they give these drugs to elderly people and people with health problems my body should be more than capable of dealing with the effects.

Yes, but it will be a big burden on your water metabolism system so that the risk are extremely high that you will suffer from extreme water retention issues later in life.
Are you willing to take such a big risk?

[B-Rad]

I understand, but did you know that even professional bodybuilders retain quite some water ween contests? Only when the contests are near, they start dehydrating. Thats because if you want to maintain great muscle mass, you cannot escape the cycle of both building muscle mass and retaining water in between contests and subsequently loosing water and muscle mass prior to the contest.
You cannot have both all the time. Its building up (and toning down) and then toning up (and breaking down)

yes if you could also answer another question why is it that every bodybuilder carb depletes precontest to shed water. also if they screw up their carb load they spillover and look puffy. carbs also must to be involved in retaining extracellular water as well because i actually look alot harder and tighter (more abs sharper detail) on high protein than when i go high carb and low protein i feel smooth

Just look around you. MOST people retain water. If the skinniest people retain water. The people without acne just dont produce much sebum.

yes most people do but i have seen people with oily faces who dont have acne. Their systems obviously must not retain water

If that were true, succesful bodybuilders would never have acne, as you need to utilize protein most effectively to be able to be the biggest.
That however is not the case. Specifically among bodybuilders acne is prevalent.

really because most bodybuilders i know dont break out much. this might be that most of them have mesomorphic body types while i tend to be naturally ectomorphic or something

also if you could answer why it is you advocate eating a big protein meal once daily when most people feel they build muscle better on frequent small protein feedings throughout the day. do you think the protein stays in the blood all day or something.

also im am currently taking in around 170 grams protein do you think i should split that into like 2 or 3 meals or should do it 1 shot

also since you believe the protein gets damaged partly due to the maillard reaction wouldnt it be a good idea to separate your protein and carbohydrates (i eat cooked meat because dirty protein doesnt effect my acne)

lastly since you state that the protein starts getting cleaned from the skin in the early morning do you think its better for the skin to eat it as late at night as possible instead of the afternoon or morning

thanks

[RRM]

why is it that every bodybuilder carb depletes precontest to shed water

They stop eating lots of bread, rice etc., which are indeed relative high carb, but its the fiber that causes them to bloat and thats the last thing they need.
Thats why they 'carb deplete'; not because of the carbs, but because of the fiber. They do keep on drinking energy drinks that are high in sugars (no fiber)

i actually look alot harder and tighter (more abs sharper detail) on high protein than when i go high carb and low protein i feel smooth

For most people its the other way around. I consume (really) loads of carbs daily and my definition is very sharp.

i have seen people with oily faces who dont have acne. Their systems obviously must not retain water

Oil and sebum are different. You can have a very oily skin without acne because the water retention does not prevent the oil from reaching the surface, just sebum (which is much more solid)

why it is you advocate eating a big protein meal once daily

We dont advocate a BIG protein meal. Not at all.

do you think the protein stays in the blood all day or something.

Yes.
Its called the protein pool. Our blood and lymphe constantly contain quite some protein (amino acids). Those levels fluctuate depending on ins and outs.
The protein that is consumed at night replenishes what has been got lost / utilized during sleep and during the day. Especially during your sleep muscles are rebuild with the help of the protein consumed priorly (at night)

also im am currently taking in around 170 grams protein do you think i should split that into like 2 or 3 meals or should do it 1 shot

Thats a lot of protein, so yes, you better split that up to prevent too much breakdown of protein into energy.

also since you believe the protein gets damaged partly due to the maillard reaction wouldnt it be a good idea to separate your protein and carbohydrates

Its not just the carbs that react with protein; also nitrogen potently combines with protein to form toxic HCA.

i eat cooked meat because dirty protein doesnt effect my acne

Do you have acne?

do you think its better for the skin to eat it as late at night as possible instead of the afternoon or morning

No, its more about the kind and amount of protein that you consume.

[B-Rad]

They stop eating lots of bread, rice etc., which are indeed relative high carb, but its the fiber that causes them to bloat and thats the last thing they need.
Thats why they 'carb deplete'; not because of the carbs, but because of the fiber. They do keep on drinking energy drinks that are high in sugars (no fiber)

Fiber attracts water though thats why your turds are alot bigger and smoother when you eat alot of fiber
So theoretically according to you if i drink soda or carb drinks i will hold less water than if i drink fruit juice cause less fiber

For most people its the other way around. I consume (really) loads of carbs daily and my definition is very sharp.

Yes when i consume mass amounts of protein i harden out incredibly although ive never been able to maintain it for very long because my acne starts to get very bad. although i do go flat if i dont consume enough carb also

Oil and sebum are different. You can have a very oily skin without acne because the water retention does not prevent the oil from reaching the surface, just sebum (which is much more solid)

ive never heard of sebaceous glands secreting anything other than sebum any proof for this?
there actually really seems to be no use for sebum other than an evolutionary remnant of when we had fur and of course to make people suffer

Its not just the carbs that react with protein; also nitrogen potently combines with protein to form toxic HCA.

but it would still be better to separate carb and protein if you eat cooked meat right. also some food have little or no HCA content even when cooked like eggs and organ meats

I would be willing to sacrifice a little convenience for health but its not even so much the fact that people will think im a freak or that its extremely inconvenient but more of the fact it just tastes gross as hell. I could barely handle eating like 50 gram raw protein from fish but trying to take in 150 gram a day would probably make me vomit.

Do you have acne?

Well currently I dont because I am on accutane but i experimented before when i was breaking out like 1 day eating 30 grams cooked and next day 30 gram raw and didnt break out. I always break out immediately after so i can tell what caused a breakout

No, its more about the kind and amount of protein that you consume.

so your saying different types of protein break you out more?

[RRM]

Fiber attracts water though thats why your turds are alot bigger and smoother when you eat alot of fiber

Thats water retention. It causes you to have less definition.

So theoretically according to you if i drink soda or carb drinks i will hold less water than if i drink fruit juice cause less fiber

No, many sodas (like coca cola) contain protein.
I use a strainer for my OJ, so very little fiber.

Yes when i consume mass amounts of protein i harden out incredibly

Yes, thats water retention.
the skin gets very soft and subbtle if you dont retein water, and gets a sharp definition.

ive never heard of sebaceous glands secreting anything other than sebum any proof for this?

The oily stuff on your skin has a very different texture than the white stuff in your pores.

but it would still be better to separate carb and protein if you eat cooked meat right.

No. Grilled meat contains the most HCA.

people will think im a freak

People dont wear your skin.

it just tastes gross as hell. I could barely handle eating like 50 gram raw protein from fish but trying to take in 150 gram a day would probably make me vomit.

Not if you eat the right fish. (check out that section in this forum)

I always break out immediately after so i can tell what caused a breakout

No, you cannot as you can get acne from food eaten days before.
Only if you eat exactly the same food every day for about 2 weeks, then you can be sure.

so your saying different types of protein break you out more?

Im saying that the effects of cooked protein is different from that of too much raw protein.

[B-Rad]

No, many sodas (like coca cola) contain protein.
I use a strainer for my OJ, so very little fiber.

Yeah but the amount of protein has to be rediculously low like not even worth discussingplus the stimulants like caffeine and phosphorous would probably help you shed some water

Yes, thats water retention.
the skin gets very soft and subbtle if you dont retein water, and gets a sharp definition.

so your saying my more visible abs and hardness are just a result of increased muscle mass and nitrogen balance

The oily stuff on your skin has a very different texture than the white stuff in your pores.

I dont really see white stuff in my pores lol

People dont wear your skin.

yeah but i already said raw or cooked still makes me breakout

plus i dont really want to have to go through life having to worry about prepacking my meals and shit i just wanna live my life. definitely seems like god had it in to screw some people over hardcore though i mean protein and jacked up hormones causing water retention and acne thats like saying if you get too sexy i will take you down lol

Not if you eat the right fish. (check out that section in this forum)

fish is expensive as hell eating 1.5lb salmon would be over $15 a day with the fruit juice added. I am broke college student

Im saying that the effects of cooked protein is different from that of too much raw protein.

yeah but they both break you out so its still basically pick your poison

[Gerard]

RRM wrote:

Why dont you use something to decrease your sebum production instead; its less dangerous than messing with your water metabolism system.
Extremely high vitamin B5 intakes seem to be effective.

It is interesting that in taking B5 you may also experience a diuretic-like effect, as high doses like those recommended in the B5 studies by H.L. Leung nearly always involve diarrhea.

Indeed I have in my own use of B5 in the past felt that that was part of the reason for seeing effects of B5 after only a few days: water is lost (through diarrhea) and fat (which Leung proposes is inadequately broken down without B5 supplementation by those who are susceptible to acne) is also evacuated from the intestines before it can be completely absorbed by the body. I do not know about the effects of this upon protein. When you have a chronic low level of diarrhea on the B5 regimen, perhaps there is a confluence of secondary effects-- regardless of whether you follow the science that Leung proposes-- that takes the edge off of water retention, fat metabolism, and protein absorption. Indeed, almost nothing but the simplest sugars are completely absorbed if one is constantly slightly "diarrheic."

[B-Rad]

thats interesting theory but the acne susceptibility is most likely due to low vitamin a levels in the system. I highly doubt its a coincidence that all acne patients have lower than average levels of vitamin a circulating in their system