The self does not exist, you do not exist.

[mario91]

This determinism question has took my life a few hours of some of the most existencial
agony I've ever been through, specially after I've seen the movie Electroma by Daft Punk,
but then these thoughts came to my mind:

1.) Even if everything is already determined, so is the fact the some of us
began to think about it, and to feel moved and pissed off with it, so maybe
it's also determined that some day we will escape from all this determinism (things
will stop being all pre-determined after a moment). And that might kinda be the
"job" of our species here. I think this would be beautiful.

2.) It's just a theory that, like all other theories, depends on 2 things: words' language and concepts. I believe these 2 things are great, great inventions,
but not perfect representations of reality as it is. They're just
an interpretation. This makes me not even believing in that theory at all, since I think its matter is still way out of our comprehension scale.

3.) Even if everything is REALLY already determined, and we are like no more than pure robots, instruments,
I-DONT-GIVE-A-SHIT-ITS-NOT-MY-FUCKING-FAULT-FUCK-IT-AND-FUCK-EVERYTHING-ELSE-LET-ME-LIVE-MY-LIFE.

4.) It would be even more beautiful than 1.) if we could deliberately break the chain of determinism, a bit like in Matrix. I believe that is possible,
if determinism really exists.


"If I came to the world, it was only to deflorate virgin forests
And draw my own feet in the unexplored sand
The rest that I do, isn't worth a damn" - José Régio

[panacea]

It seems you just rationalized a way out of determinism because it makes you feel negative for some reason (you mentioned agony, and how 'breaking' determinism would be beautiful somehow).

Cause and effect are fundamental premises to rational thought. It is useless to think in terms of the absolutely unpredictable or random. What purpose is served by thinking about an object that might become different in any way than you are thinking at any moment.

Determinism proposes that there is nothing in the universe that is independent of everything else. This is necessarily true because existence is the ability to have affect upon something else which means that all things must also be affected by something else. The end result is determinism.

Science presumes determinism because if it presumes that anything can occur without cause, that one thing would potentially effect all other things making nothing predictable at all and hence pointless to study. Schrodinger's Cat was used to show that even on subnuclear levels, if we presume uncaused events, on the macroscopic scale, things would become unpredictable as well.

It's simple, either you think about this rationally and presume determinism, or you think irrationally/superstitiously and believe in some random concept involving mysticism. Either way you can feel happy or sad about your beliefs, but the most ideal path is to think rationally as it's best for your own survival and the benefit of our species and also to make peace with whatever the truth is. It's not that hard to make peace with it - for example if determinism makes you feel worthless, perhaps you are looking at it in a negative way so that 'if I have no free will then I'm powerless' instead of a peaceful perspective such as 'I'm an immortal piece of the universe that affects it in a never-ending and unique way'.

Personally, I feel that if someone is resistant to new information simply because their emotions are in the way then that person is at a disadvantage to other humans who are able to adapt.

[mario91]

perhaps you are looking at it in a negative way so that 'if I have no free will then I'm powerless' instead of a peaceful perspective such as 'I'm an immortal piece of the universe that affects it in a never-ending and unique way'.

That's a very good point, kinda opens my mind a little bit. I was indeed looking at it the negative way. I was pissed off about it. But the reason is more "everything is determined = everything is dead". There's much more feeling than reason in this. But then, after my 4 thoughts, I could vanish this feeling.

Personally, I feel that if someone is resistant to new information simply because their emotions are in the way then that person is at a disadvantage to other humans who are able to adapt.

I'm not resistant to new information, since this not a fact. This is a theory. I'm doubting, questioning a theory. And I personally wouldn't like this theory to be true. That's all.
Oh, and adaptation is overrated btw

[mario91]

But you know what, Panacea? You're totally right. This argumentation of mine is not even that much rational.
But I'm just expressing my feelings I don't know how to do it with much reason.
Not devaluing you, just admitting I'm the messed one in this matter

[mario91]

You just made determinism make some sense to me.
Maybe it couldn't work any other way.
I feel now that it doesn't makes us robots, but parts of something that's alive and changes over time.
And why it's alive, and not dead like I said determinism would make it? Because the future didn't happen yet. And we can't predict it. The future is yet to be given life.

[panacea]

(in response to your earlier posts) I understand where you are coming from, I just didn't want you to cease thinking about this because of some fears of what it being true might mean.
I believe in determinism more than just about anything else and I can tell you that I see more beautiful symmetry and coincidences and humor in the world now than I ever did while believing in free will, god, good and evil, luck, karma, spirit, souls, etc.

Just about everything that we believe in that is supernatural we deem 'beautiful', but there is plenty of non fictitious phenomena that can make you awestruck.

Also, having a rational head doesn't mean that you turn into a Vulcan, mostly it's situational. If you are in a situation where someone is cracking jokes, you would do what you did before knowing about deterministic nature of their psychology and laugh and enjoy it. If someone was attacking you with insults, then you would also feel bad or angry just like before (or not, if you didn't before). The main difference is that in retrospect, when you are dwelling on whatever is bothering you, you are able to immediately rationalize out what happened as an innocent outburst by that person and forgive them for it, in a sense, in a purely honest way because you are actually not offended anymore by realizing the truth (that they didn't have control). I was a christian for many years and this is what we were taught by 'Jesus' in Sunday school to act like, but it was all pretend and make believe with hate in our guts after the fact because we didn't understand that the other person was bound by fate just like us - we were taught to forgive someone just because it was the 'right' thing to do, and that was not what we necessarily felt like doing on the inside. So as you can see, religions create a paradox because even though some wise men might have gotten the big picture of life and how to be peaceful, their disciples cannot ever grasp it because they are deluded with superstitious 'right and wrong' which acts like a poison to their happiness, keeping them from realizing the innocence in every thing under the sun and being truly at ease.

The most dreadful thing ever about determinism is not that 'everything is dead', it's that you end up feeling mostly stress free while those you love stay guilt ridden, morally bound, self hating, and stressed out like hell, and there is not much you can do to help them.

[mario91]

No fear at all!

I agree that supernatural doesn't mean beautiful. In fact, I hate supernatural stuff, mysticism, etc. I also think beauty in in natural things, in this world, not in another.

About Christianity, my position is a bit like John Lennon's: "I like the word of Jesus, but I don't like the organizations who "follow" it". So totally agree too.

But overall, the thing why I tend not to like determinism, and all religions, and other stuff, is also a quote, this time by Jim Morrison: "I have the soul of a clown which forces me to blow it at the most important moments". I'd like things to be more chaotic. Watch the world burn. But maybe it couldn't work that way. Maybe thank god (non religious) we are this way. Maybe it's just arrogance of mine, and god really knows what he's doing.

But you know what? I also feel a lot like you described in the last paragraph! That makes me think that maybe I'm not so different from you, maybe deep inside I believe in determinism a lot more than what I think.
But anyway, those are mediocre emotions, and the more tolerant your perspective becomes, the less you'll have them.

[abicahsoul]

"Methaphysics is just a result of being unwell" - Fernando Pessoa

Quite off topic.. but I am a great fan of Pessoa, I have read one of his work (the only published??) in Swedish.. Makes me wish I could read Portugese
Hehe.. and he has a point there.. but on the other hand for me, it is ok as long as it is a hobby or just imagining possibilities..

[mario91]

"Methaphysics is just a result of being unwell" - Fernando Pessoa

Quite off topic.. but I am a great fan of Pessoa, I have read one of his work (the only published??) in Swedish.. Makes me wish I could read Portugese
Hehe.. and he has a point there.. but on the other hand for me, it is ok as long as it is a hobby or just imagining possibilities..

Yeah... This quote has a dark humor tone, since 99% of what Pessoa wrote was metaphysical / emotion-intellectualization stuff. This is from a 5 page poem called Tabacaria (Tobacco Shop), in which he writes 5 pages of the deepest, most abstract metaphysics, and than says that as a conclusion!
Makes me proud to hear you like his work What did you read from him btw? Message?

[waipete]

So determinism can be thought of as watching a movie with no creator?

I do see the sound logic behind this theory, It very much aligns up with my adopted theory of no control, I very much think our survival mechanism does control our actions in various ways. I don't think it's an end or a cure to suffering, but very much an important key to get "there". I do relish the idea of having a total understanding of the way the world works in order to find mental freedom, but to get there is not as simple as reading a book, because then we only become conscious of our own ignorance towards the world. With enough experiment, we then have a conscious understanding of the world, I think if we just embed this enough into our heads, through enough experience, our conscious understanding becomes a unconscious understanding, much like riding a bike and, all action becomes natural and we can attain peace. I think we have to be aware of all misconceptions and illogical ideas we may already have adopted or can run into along the way. Things like, self, god, religion etc., although god may exist or could just be someones idea to bring order to society that has caught on, the fact is there is no proof god exists, therefore you wouldn't want to get caught up in an idea that stems no real logic. Realizing no self is another tricky endeavor, it's not as easy as saying there is no self we need to know this without a doubt, reading about no self we only come to a state of conscious ignorance which could in contrast be similar to a belief of no self (kind of like believing God we are aware we need help understanding and are looking for answers, but with god we stay at this state). With a good perception we see our actions and thoughts require another action or thought, then we can attain a conscious understanding. Getting to an unconscious understanding, where we no longer have to prove that self exists or doesn't exist or no longer oscillating between belief and doubt, our mind is set free of this illusion. I think we have to exercise our brains to continue learning, and unlearning, and until we have a unconscious understanding we shouldn't really base our most important actions on belief, but I do encourage people to experiment with new ideas to find proof for yourself.

Learning can come from anywhere even religion, heck I can't lie and say I didn't learn a lot of good morals from the Holy Bible . I find the best sources I have came across are science, psychology, Buddhism (a good free ebook about zen and quantum physics http://www.daviddarling.info/works/ZenPhysics/), ruthless truth, determinism, biology, Jiddu Krishnamurti, neurology. I have to say however, I think Jiddu is a bit overly negative but I think he does have great insights.

panacea I have a question I've had riddled in my mind, do you think cause and effect can explain consciousness? like for instance we know all our actions are in response to other actions, so therefore consciousness is just that, and we can say a flower has consciousness because it responds to the sun? Even a molecule is aware of it's surroundings and reacts accordingly.

also again panacea do you find truth in this quote, I know it's can be very dark to some, so readers beware.

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

I'm not criticizing you in any way, I've in fact made peace with any outcome the world has for me, but do you think this quote can be valid?

Sorry I am back, but I am again open to discussion, I have freed some time up =).

[panacea]

cause and effect explains conciousness but a flower doesn't have conciousness, which is a complex mental organization

the matrix quote is not accurate long term humans could save the planet from things which destroy life on other planets like asteroids, life on earth will eventually go mostly extinct due to lack of co2 (we help slow this process with deforestation and producing co2), and many other factors

we can shift from being more harmful to the planets other lifeforms or more beneficial, we have no inherent virus characteristic

[jorgefelino]

the self exists unless you see clearly it doesnt exist. to analize, think, imagine, rationalize the non existence of the self is not to see the truth or falseness of the non existence of the self.