Diary-estrogen and osteoporosis

[dime]

Besides the theory of why diary consumption may be related to osteoporosis (too much calcium), I've just realized there's another way to link diary and osteoporosis: estrogen.

Estrogen and Osteoporosis
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/es ... osis.shtml

Most exogenous estrogen in our diet comes from milk
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/200 ... dairy.html

[RRM]

There are quite a lot of controversial remarks in the first article, but let me start here:

"that this happened during a time when the use of estrogen had become much more common doesn't present a good argument for the protective effects of estrogen treatment. (And during this period there was a large increase in the consumption of estrogenic soy products.)"

The (weaker-estrogenic) phyto-estrogens from soy partially replace endogenous estrogens,
causing a per saldo decrease in the estrogenic effect.

"The women who break bones in old age are generally the women who had the thinnest bones in youth. "

To properly back up this statement, it would require a 50 year follow up study after the initial bone scan.
Actually, in those countries (high-diary consuming countries) where young people have the thickest bones, osteoporotic bone fracture incidence at old age is highest.

[dime]

Logically a thinner bone would be more susceptible to break than a thicker bone when bone density is same for the two bones?
I guess what he's saying is as you age estrogen levels rise and progesterone decrease. This increases bone loss roughly at same rate in those with thinner and those with thicker bones, but thinner bones will be easier to break.
Dairy boosts estrogen levels in the body, so you come to the osteoporosis point earlier than normally.
A side effect is that it increases the bone density too yes, but which of these two things have more effect on osteoporosis? It would be good to look at people who get a lot of calcium in their nutrition from sources other than dairy and see whether they have similar occurrence of osteoporosis as people who drink a lot of milk.

[dime]

He's talking quite a bit against weak estrogens like phyto-estrogens here http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/estriol-des-ddt.shtml

[RRM]

Logically a thinner bone would be more susceptible to break than a thicker bone when bone density is same for the two bones?

In osteoporotic bone, the capacity to repair microfractures is diminshed.
You are assuming healthy bone.
Healthy bone will not break easily, even when its thin.
Porous bone may be thick, and yet break easily.
Assuming that increasing bone mineral density in healthy young people will prevent bone fracture in osteoporotic elderly,
is similar to assuming that increasing muscle weight in healthy young adults may prevent muscular disease in elderly.
To me its not logical to assume that bodybuilding at young age may prevent Oculopharyngeal Muscular Dystrophy, for example.
To me its not logical to assume that bone building practices at young age may prevent osteoporosis.
Why not?
Building muscle mass as well as building bone mass has a temporary effect;
as soon as you stop the building, the mass will decrease.
And osteoporosis is not about healthy bone being too thin, but about a diminished osteoblast capacity.

I guess what he's saying is as you age estrogen levels rise and progesterone decrease.

Why do you think that this is true?
(per Wiki) There is a fall in estrogen levels during menopause, and in the Western world,
the most typical age range for menopause is between the ages of 40 and 61.
In countries such as India and the Philippines, the median age of natural menopause is earlier.
Post-menopause, woman's reproductive hormone levels continue to drop.

(per Wiki) Young females prone to osteoporosis are females with
- hypogonadism (mediated by estrogen deficiency)
- prolonged premenopausal amenorrhea (as in top athletes; low estrogen)
- a bilateral oophorectomy (surgical removal of the ovaries; low estrogen)
- a premature ovarian failure (causing estrogen deficiency).

This increases bone loss roughly at same rate in those with thinner and those with thicker bones, but thinner bones will be easier to break.

You are assuming healthy bones.
In osteoporotic bones, the bones cannot repair microfractures, so that the structural integrity diminishes. (porous bones)
Old people with very thin, but healthy bones, dont get osteoporotic bone fractures.

[RRM]

He's talking quite a bit against weak estrogens like phyto-estrogens here http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/estriol-des-ddt.shtml

Im also against soy-estrogens, but thats not the point.
He attributes pro-estrogenic effects to soy-estrogens, which is correct,
but if one consumes soy-estrogens, this will decrease the effect of endogenous estrogens (which are more potent),
so that per saldo the estrogenic effect decreases.
Nagata, C et al, regarding women, Nagata, C et al, regarding men
Thats is why soy-estrogens were thought to decrease estrogen-related cancer risk.
Nagata C et al