Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)

[overkees]

Thanks for this insightful reply!

I eat only Wai foods, and my diet is the same every day. The only cheating that I do is rarely eating heated fish/meat (social situations). In retrospect, the five issues that I mentioned in the initial post seemed to become increasingly worse as I added more sugar. Seems clear that the refined sugar was depleting my body's nutrients.

I quit all refined sugar. I'm rebuilding my diet around fat instead of sugar, especially animal fat. More yolks, some liver, beef. Maybe bone marrow, I haven't tried it yet. More coconut oil is a good possibility. Macadamias may also be an option. I'm mindful of the omega 3 to 6 ratio; I want it to be at 3:1 or better and not get too many PUFAs. I'm hoping 3000 or so calories of these foods will be enough for now.

Very good strategy! High sugar keeps your metabolism sky high, you can do everything you want but you won't gain weight and you will lose (to keep the engine running) lots of nutrients. Coconut oil also has this property, but to a less extent than sugar. It is also not nearly as nutrient depleting as sugar. I never got it why RRM thinks sugar is so good. My bets are that he is just a sweettooth. I think there are way better alternatives than sugar. Even if you're active, like me 45 minutes of cycling + 5km running + school (avg 5hrs) + work (avg 2 hrs), I just can't do it without (LOTS) of fat.

I also find butter very helpful. It's high in retinol (vit A), has some vitamin D, has some vitamin K2 (certainly if grass fed) and has a very good composition of fats. It is pretty low in unsaturated fatty acids (3g/100g) and grass fed butter has an omega3:omega6 ratio of 1:1. It's very healthy and cheap energy food in my opinion. But, strictly speaking it isn't a wai food. I think the benefits far outweigh the 'potential' dangers.

And to make things clear: coating on tongue has only little to do with nutrients... same goes for diarrhea or sticky poo.
Almost everyone I know harvests (sticky) pathogens in the gut, I did aswell before October 2012. Your gut health is perfect if you never ever see any stains on the toilet paper and have regular, easy bowel movements. Your tongue needs to be like a baby's tongue: pink without any white spots or coating.
Nutrients had nothing to do with it for me: I always had versions of my diet with every nutrient (except for calcium and sometimes zinc) well above 100% up to 300% of the guidelines at least and still had white coating and gut problems if I ate too much sugar.

RRM still seems to think that just eating 100% will resolve this, apparantly, I think he is just ignorant when it comes to gut health.
Note that my statement about the no soiling is pretty provocative (in my opinion logic and achievable, I'm the proof) and the issue probably lies in the fact that RRM doesn't agree with me on the no staining part indicates perfect gut health. Because otherwise I can't understand why he is still claiming that 100% will solve it.

Now I'm with ya on preventing teeth damage and restoring them. I'm eating lots of butter, yolks, beef for vit A, D, and K2 and added a bit of mozarella cheese for extra calcium. So far... nothing has worked very good. I got very dedicated in my quest several and then I will almost resolved the sensitive tooth issue and then I will lose only a tiny bit of dedication and it will reappear within no time. One tip: xyltiol mouth rinse two times a day. I brush with a very fine dust of calcium carbonate atm, this is very effective and not abbrasive. I don't like the fizzyness of the baking soda in my OJ, but it does work wonders for dental health.

[RRM]

High sugar keeps your metabolism sky high, you can do everything you want but you won't gain weight

Thats nonsense.
I can easily gain muscle weight on relatively high sugar.

and you will lose (to keep the engine running) lots of nutrients.

Ah, i guess you mean "excessive sugar intake".
Please be specific, overkees.

I never got it why RRM thinks sugar is so good.

Overkees, you could try to read a little better. That helps.
I never said that sugar is "so good".
I said that its a nutrient efficient for supplying you with energy.

I think there are way better alternatives than sugar. ...I also find butter very helpful.

B-vitamins are essential in wound healing.
Oils and butter contain no B-vitamins, similar to sugar.
So, replacing all your sugar with butter or oil will not help you.
My advice: less sugar, more juice and more animal fat, yolks and beef is fine too, of course.
Just get the ratio right. Thats all.

RRM still seems to think that just eating 100% will resolve this.. I think he is just ignorant when it comes to gut health

At least RRM has extensive experience with 100% Wai.
Not overkees.

I quit all refined sugar.

Hmm, you like extremes, dont you?
Sure, you can go from excessive sugar to no sugar at all.
Instead, you could also try a moderate approach (no extreme intake of anything),
like less sugar and more fruits/juices and/or animal food.

[Kasper]

What is wrong with you people?
I did not write that !!
Not meeting macro- and micronutrient requirements have everything to do with "Wounds not healing".
So, simply too much sugar,
not in accordance with our recommendations.

Oh, did you not write that RRM? Are you autistic or are you trying to manipulate the discussion?
Please don't act like an autistic fool. It is really irritating.
I'm not going into this discussion further, as you will only irritate me.
I do think it is very weak that you just simply ignore it or play like a fool when you are faced with the fact that sugar can cause candida problems.

You are not making any sense Kasper.
Are our recommendations to eat raw food incorrect?
They may cause problems in some people....
EACH individual food may be bad for somebody.
Not just sugar, but also mango, papaya, tuna, banana, whatever...
So, should we warn people for each food?
"There may be individual susceptibilities / vulnerabilities".
That is just outright ridiculous, and you know it.

I'm not talking about what you should or shouldn't do.
But no, I don't think that it would be ridiculous to warn people for individual susceptibilities for specific foods.
In fact, both the GAPS diet and GI book of normalbreathing.com talk about those individual reactions (allergies) in great extend.
They write about how someone can check for this reactions to specific foods/nutrients, which foods are the most safe, which food triggers most reactions, when someone could reintroduce a food etc. etc.
This is not ridiculous at all, acting like a fool when it comes to sugar causing candida problems or other problems, that IS ridiculous.

[RRM]

but I started to notice some health problems that got progressively worse as I added more and more sugar:
-White-coated tongue
-Wounds not healing
-Teeth decaying noticeably
-Abdominal cramps
-Osmotic diarrhea

What did JeffC do?
Consuming so much sugar that he did not meet his macro- and micronutrient requirements.
The recommendations are perfectly fine.

You know that candida isn't about macro- and micronutrient requirements.

I did not write that !!
Not meeting macro- and micronutrient requirements have everything to do with "Wounds not healing".
So, simply too much sugar,
not in accordance with our recommendations.

Oh, did you not write that RRM? Are you autistic or are you trying to manipulate the discussion?
Please don't act like an autistic fool. It is really irritating.

Kasper, take a deap breath before you continu insulting me.
Then read my posts again.
I never wrote that candida is about (not meeting) macro- and micronutrient requirements.
I wrote that excessive sugar intake is about not meeting macro- and micronutrient requirements.
My observation that JeffCs sugar intake was excessive was based on JeffCs observation that "Wounds not healing".
Excessive sugar depletes B-vitamins, which affects wound healing.

I do think it is very weak that you just simply ignore it or play like a fool when you are faced with the fact that sugar can cause candida problems.

Of course EXCESSIVE sugar intake is bad.
Excessive anything is bad.
Usually, candida is caused by antibiotics intake, or similar.
Sure, EXCESSIVE sugar intake may stimulate candida growth / weaken your defense.
Im not ignoring that.
Though, even in this case of excessive sugar consumption, it did not result in candida.
Im saying that our recommendations are not to consume excessive sugar (resulting in not meeting macro- and micronutrient requirements).
So, our recommendations are perfectly fine.

I don't think that it would be ridiculous to warn people for individual susceptibilities for specific foods.

I did not write that it would be ridiculous to warn people for specific foods,
as we already warn people for specific foods, such as papaya, grapefruit etc.
What i wrote was this:

EACH individual food may be bad for somebody.
So, should we warn people for each food?
That is just outright ridiculous, and you know it.

Warning people (for individual susceptibiities) for EACH food is ridiculous.
That is what i wrote.

[Kasper]

Kasper, take a deap breath before you continu insulting me.
Then read my posts again.

I've read them a couple of times, don't worry.
I was insulting you for manipulating discussions.
After only one time reading your posts, one won't notice you're manipulating this discussion, as you're too good in it.
I have to give you credit for that.
But you win, I'll play your game, just having some silly discussion (mostly about what you did or did not write, what other people assume etc.).

Kasper, take a deap breath before you continu insulting me.
Then read my posts again.
I never wrote that candida is about (not meeting) macro- and micronutrient requirements.
I wrote that excessive sugar intake is about not meeting macro- and micronutrient requirements.
My observation that JeffCs sugar intake was excessive was based on JeffCs observation that "Wounds not healing".
Excessive sugar depletes B-vitamins, which affects wound healing.

1. Please note that you're assuming that a) exessive sugar caused jeffc to not meet his macro- and micronutrient requirements b) vitamin B-depletion caused his wound not to heal.
2. If you're recommendations are fine, we can conclude that jeffc's problem with sugar were caused by not meeting his macro- and micronutrient requirements. Therefore we can conclude (again) that you are just assuming that:
a) White-coated tongue b) Teeth decaying noticeably c) Abdominal cramps d) Osmotic diarrhea
are all caused by Jeffc not meeting his macro- and micronutrient requirements.

One may say that those symptoms are more likely caused by the nature of sugar then by vitamin B depletion.
Or do you think that those symptoms are caused by not meeting macro- and micronutrient requirements?

I do think it is very weak that you just simply ignore it or play like a fool when you are faced with the fact that sugar can cause candida problems.

Of course EXCESSIVE sugar intake is bad.
Excessive anything is bad.
Usually, candida is caused by antibiotics intake, or similar.
Sure, EXCESSIVE sugar intake may stimulate candida growth / weaken your defense.
Im not ignoring that.

You may want to reread my post, as you may have misread it, I'm not talking about excessive sugar anywhere.

Though, even in this case of excessive sugar consumption, it did not result in candida.

You are just assuming this, or did he do a test for candida ?

Im saying that our recommendations are not to consume excessive sugar (resulting in not meeting macro- and micronutrient requirements).

Well, according to this, your recommendations are still: "Sugar is just a form of energy, and can be used without problem as long as the complete diet meets macro- and micronutrient requirements."

I did not write that it would be ridiculous to warn people for specific foods,
as we already warn people for specific foods, such as papaya, grapefruit etc.

I know that you did not write that. I didn't claim you did, please reread my post (carefully).
But as we both agree that it would not be ridiculous to warn people for specific foods, why not warn people for individual vulnerabilities/susceptibilities regarding this specific food (or should I say supplement): Table sugar.
I think we've seen more stories at this forum for individual vulnerabilities/susceptibilities regarding sugar then regarding papaya, haven't we ?

Another thing you may want to reread is that I did not answer the following question with yes:

So, should we warn people for each food?

In fact, I didn't even said you should warn people for sugar.
If you want to know what I think you should do, I think you should tell a complete story about sugar.
Or at least something closer to the complete story then this: http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/twd-sugar.html
Because that is some kind of walt disney version of sugar.

For example, I always tell people to carefully watch their stools and tongue if they increase orange juice consumption (I'm not even talking about white sugar).

[dime]

Kasper what you do think of the recommendations of Ray Peat/Danny Rody to add sugar to everything you eat?
Condensed milk would probably be the best food according to them.
Do they put warnings about sugar?

I don't know why are you still debating, because it's clear that JeffC simply had too much sugar. I mean it was seriously that much that it even caused osmotic diarrhea. It's more than your body can digest and it's against the recommendations of the wai diet (small meals spread out according to your energy levels).
Should there be a warning about people eating too much fat as well, so much that it causes statorrhea, or too much fat is not so problematic in your view?

[overkees]

What does ray peat or danny roddy have to do with it?

And sugar is indeed not a food, its a supplement and wai does not advocate supplements.

And no fat doesnt promote candida and such and thats what this is about.

[RRM]

I was insulting you for manipulating discussions.

So, you were justified in insulting me?
And you support that claim by accusing me of manipulations?
Without backing that up by specifically pointing out the manipulation?

you are just assuming that:
a) White-coated tongue b) Teeth decaying noticeably c) Abdominal cramps d) Osmotic diarrhea
are all caused by Jeffc not meeting his macro- and micronutrient requirements.

No, im assuming that a), b), c) and d) may be caused by excessive sugar intake.
And im assuming that his sugar intake was excessive, based on his observation that his wounds were not healing,
which i contribute to not meeting macro- and micronutrient requirements.

I do think it is very weak that you just simply ignore it or play like a fool when you are faced with the fact that sugar can cause candida problems.

Usually, candida is caused by antibiotics intake, or similar.
Sure, EXCESSIVE sugar intake may stimulate candida growth / weaken your defense.

You may want to reread my post, as you may have misread it, I'm not talking about excessive sugar anywhere.

I know that you did not write that.
You wrote that "sugar can cause candida".
I wrote that excessive sugar is bad.
Why did i use the word excessive?
Because it is key to use that word. Without the word excessive,
people may think that consuming more or less sugar may readily cause candida.
Even in this case of EXCESSIVE sugar intake, no candida was caused.
Why not?
Because candida is usually caused by the use of antibiotics, or similar.
Sugar is just fuel for candida, as it is fuel for cancer cells, as it is for normal cells.
Does that make sugar bad?
No.
EXCESSIVE sugar intake is bad, but it does not have to cause candida.

Though, even in this case of excessive sugar consumption, it did not result in candida.

You are just assuming this, or did he do a test for candida?

Yes its an assumption, as im also assuming that he does not have cancer.
Are you saying he does have candida?
Do you know anybody on this diet who did get candida from consuming sugar?

For example, I always tell people to carefully watch their stools and tongue

Sure, you could do that.
I think people know whether their stool is consistent or not.
I also think that people will notice if the color of their tongue changes.
Its kind of obvious, isnt it?
Maybe you are kind of foccused on this because of your personal health issues?

[RRM]

And sugar is indeed not a food, its a supplement and wai does not advocate supplements.

The Wai diet includes the use of sugar and oil.
Both may be regarded as foods, or not.
I have never seen refined sugar in any store selling supplements, though. (maybe fish oil)
Also, both are included in "Food Composition and Nutrition Tabels", and in the USDA nutrient database,
which is not true for supplements.
Anyway, both are included in the Wai diet, as optional, i think.

[overkees]

Look, the problem I've got with these kind of issues is that these scenarios happen. People compare themselves to you, and this is in many cases not a smart thing to do. You've got to warn people for that, otherwise these things will happen.

The sugar story on the wai site can easily go wrong and aggrevate alot of symptoms. Since alot of people used antibiotics, alot of people have pathogen overgrowth in the gut, candida is only one of the many. It's easy to talk about candida as it is the most common and bad form of overgrowth since it involves a yeast that can go into a fungal form.

What I think we should do is adapt the sugar page. Because the term excessive sugar consumption is so damn relative. In fruits it's much harder to get these kind of adverse effects. If I use more than 100g of sugar I will get a very bad coating on the tongue and dental plaque. You might be fine with 250g of sugar. And Kasper already experiences problems with less than 100g. The problem now comes when people don't have good views on their health, because they (like I did aswell) don't know the markers on bad gut health. I thought diarrhea or sticky stools was normal to have a few times per month. This is not the case, stools need to give no stains on the toilet paper, don't leave any marks in the toilet and must not be too soft and slimy and certainly not so hard that it hurts and gives constipation problems. Now this is an important thing to tell to people. So if you are suggesting sugar can be used for energy, you should also mention these things or otherwise people might do ALOT of damage to their bodies. THAT is what this is all about and I can assure you this is what Kasper also means. You keep evading these kind of things by ignoring it by not responding, only isolate a certain statement and always reflect anything at yourself and forcing the discussion to go into unnecessary details about what you said and didn't said. And this only draws away the attention from the real point of fact of the matter.

Please, don't have unnecessary discussions. And please be reasonable and admit that sugar needs very good monitoring if you are going to try it.

In summary: Please warn people for these things, because people don't know about the markers of good gut health. For they are simply not aware of what the signs and markers are for proper gut health.

[RRM]

You've got to warn people for that, otherwise these things will happen.

Tongue coating? Dental plaque?
One can easily notice that.

please be reasonable and admit that sugar needs very good monitoring if you are going to try it

If you are going to try it?
Very few people do not use any sugar at all...
At least at this diet we always stress to carefully listen to your blood energy levels.
At this diet you will never consume too much energy in one sitting.
If we are taking about diabetes and overweight etc, you are totally aiming at the wrong diet here...

Please warn people for these things, because people don't know about the markers of good gut health.

People very well know that diarrhea is not good.
People are also constantly told to minimize their sugar intake, in adds, in school, by Drs, in TV shows, by friends, parents, etc etc.
Many people actually think that sugar is toxic.
That sugar causes diabetes.
That sugar causes overweight.
That sugar causes cancer.

On this diet we tell people to listen to their body.
Diarrhea is not easily overlooked. Its much easier to consume too little calories, for example.
Lets not get paranoia here...

[overkees]

You've got to warn people for that, otherwise these things will happen.

Tongue coating? Dental plaque?
One can easily notice that.

I am not talking about this, I was talking about gut health when mentioning the term "these things".

Please warn people for these things, because people don't know about the markers of good gut health.

People very well know that diarrhea is not good.
People are also constantly told to minimize their sugar intake, in adds, in school, by Drs, in TV shows, by friends, parents, etc etc.
Many people actually think that sugar is toxic.
That sugar causes diabetes.
That sugar causes overweight.
That sugar causes cancer.

On this diet we tell people to listen to their body.
Diarrhea is not easily overlooked. Its much easier to consume too little calories, for example.
Lets not get paranoia here...

If you are willing to try this diet you must already agree to use alot of sugar via fruits...
you will also have issues without not ingesting enough energy as is seen with alot of people, therefore sugar is a good alternative,
most people know that diarrhea is not good, but the it's about the frequency. Diarrhea is absent in good gut health.
You haven't addressed the part of the staining on the toilet paper or the marks in the toilet after bowel movements,
if i tell this to people they are surprised to hear that I never have these kind of bad gut health indicators, and they are not aware of the fact that these things indicate a bad gut health. They think it is normal.

Please respond to the last 3 sentences, because that is what this is about.

[RRM]

You've got to warn people for that, otherwise these things will happen.

Tongue coating? Dental plaque?
One can easily notice that.

I am not talking about this, I was talking about gut health when mentioning the term "these things".

Diarrhea is also easily noticed.

If you are willing to try this diet you must already agree to use alot of sugar via fruits...

If you think we should warn people against the dangers of sugars in fruits, you are definitely on the wrong forum here...

You haven't addressed the part of the staining on the toilet paper or the marks in the toilet after bowel movements,
if i tell this to people they are surprised to hear that I never have these kind of bad gut health indicators, and they are not aware of the fact that these things indicate a bad gut health. They think it is normal.

Please respond to the last 3 sentences, because that is what this is about

Ok...
What is there to address?
What do you expect from me???

[overkees]

If you think we should warn people against the dangers of sugars in fruits, you are definitely on the wrong forum here...

I don't think we should do that, it was in reply to your argument that people find sugar dangerous and obesity and such. If people start the wai diet, they already eats lots of sugar from fruit, so that making the step to supplemental sugar is much more easily made on a wai diet. You didn't consider this in your line of reasoning. That is why I mentioned it.

You haven't addressed the part of the staining on the toilet paper or the marks in the toilet after bowel movements,
if i tell this to people they are surprised to hear that I never have these kind of bad gut health indicators, and they are not aware of the fact that these things indicate a bad gut health. They think it is normal.

Please respond to the last 3 sentences, because that is what this is about

Ok...
What is there to address?

Okay, I will try to make it as simple as possible (I can't understand you still don't get this):
People don't know signs of bad gut health except for diarrhea. The truth is that there are a lot more markers of bad gut health. Therefore you must take into consideration that people can easily consume too many sugar. Even if their macro and micronutrient requirements are met.

What do you expect from me???

You (or we) should change it and give a warning. OR.. what might be even better is to make a section about proper gut health and include the signs of a good gut health and a bad gut health. So that people can get a better understanding to know what to look at for when adding sugar and prevent things like in the case of jeff.

[RRM]

The truth is that there are a lot more markers of bad gut health.

So, you think we should make a list of 'bad gut health indicators'?
Based on what scientific evidence?

.. and prevent things like in the case of jeff.

What JeffC did, was consuming so much sugar that macro- and micornutrients requirements were not met.
We already advise against that, which he ignored.
And then he blames the sugar, instead of the level of sugar intake.