High glucose diet vs high fat diet

[panacea]

This thread was split off from another thread

As far as I know those diets tend to be high-fat as well, which means people on such a diet often go into a state of ketosis, where a bigger part of the energy comes from ketone bodies (from fatty acids).

is this bad and if it is, why

[RRM]

...if 1 gram of protein is the same energywise as 1 gram of sugar, than it would take a lot of protein for someone to keep their energy up on a low-carb diet, right? Which I assume would be unhealthy and expensive.

As far as I know those diets tend to be high-fat as well, which means people on such a diet often go into a state of ketosis, where a bigger part of the energy comes from ketone bodies (from fatty acids).

is this bad and if it is, why

I think that Oscar is saying that on a low-carb diet you dont have to rely solely on protein for energy,
since a low-carb diet generally also provides you with substantial amounts of fat.
Fat is a more efficient energy source than protein (which contains nitrogen as a by product), so that this fat makes a low-carb diet more healthy
(compared to a low-carb, low-fat, high protein diet).
The draw back of a low carb diet is that it doesnt make you feel as energetic.

[panacea]

you thoroughly confused me - if low-carb, high-fat, low-protein is more energy efficient why doesn't it make you feel more energetic than high-carb, low-fat, high-protein?

[RRM]

Because the blood glucose level is the key factor in how energetic you feel.

[panacea]

unless your fat source is high in medium chain fatty acids, right?

"All fats and oils contain nearly 100% LCFAs [long chain fatty acids] except coconut and
palm kernel oils, which average 63% and 58% MCFAs respectively, and
there is a fabricated oil called MCT oil that is 100% MCFAs."

- Know Your Fats

"Digestion of carbohydrates starts in the mouth and continues in
earnest in the small intestine. If the carbohydrate is the type that is called
"complex" - the kind that is made up of large (multiple) units ~ then it
needs to be broken into smaller (single) units for the final stages of
absorption into the portal blood and transport thereafter to the liver."

- Know Your Fats

"Coconut oil is, therefore, different
from all other oils containing saturated fatty acids. Being a MCFA oil,
coconut oil has certain definite advantages over other LCFAs. The
digestion of coconut oils is faster and starts almost in the mouth itself
and undergoes complete digestion in the stomach and upper intestine
not requiring the pancreatic juice lipase for its digestion. It also has better
solubility in biological fluids, getting absorbed directly into the portal
blood and carried to the liver directly to undergo rapid oxidation to
release energy."

- Unknown Article

seems to me like high-mcfa-fat diet provides short term energy (63% MCFA in coconut oil for example) along with a little long term energy, as well as the antimicrobial effects, seems to be better for us to have a high-mcfa-fat, low-carb, adequate-protein diet than high-carb, low-fat, adequate-protein diet because the high-mcfa-fat gives better energy stabilization with less effort. Not everyone is as adept at 'sensing' their own blood glucose levels and it's just more worry free the high-mcfa way.

[RRM]

unless your fat source is high in medium chain fatty acids, right?

No, you really need glucose for this (or glycerol, glucogenic amino acids etc).
Thats because feeling energetic is connected to the availability of energy for active muscles.

"All fats and oils contain nearly 100% LCFAs [long chain fatty acids] except coconut and
palm kernel oils, which average 63% and 58% MCFAs respectively, and
there is a fabricated oil called MCT oil that is 100% MCFAs."

Nearly, indeed; sheabutter contains 2.3% MCFAs, cotton seed 1.2% and illipe fat 0.7%.
According to Souci et al, coconut oil and palm kernel oil averagely contain 75.4% and 68.6% MCFAs respectively.

seems to me like high-mcfa-fat diet provides short term energy

Yes, but feeling energetic is not about the availability of fats.
Fatty acid levels do not stimulate adrenaline secretion as glucose and glucogenic amino acids do.

the high-mcfa-fat gives better energy stabilization with less effort. Not everyone is as adept at 'sensing' their own blood glucose levels and it's just more worry free the high-mcfa way.

Actually, we are more sensitive to blood-glucose levels than to blood-fatty acid levels...
But yes, we definitely need sufficient fatty acids to stabilize the blood sugar level.
Fatty acids cannot replace the function and influence that glucose has, though,
and since we are less sensitive to blood fatty acid levels, it much easier to consume to much of it (deposited as adipose fat),
or too little.

[panacea]

No, you really need glucose for this (or glycerol, glucogenic amino acids etc).
Thats because feeling energetic is connected to the availability of energy for active muscles.

According to this and other websites on the matter,

Unlike other fatty acids, MCFA are absorbed directly from the intestines into the portal vein and sent straight to the liver where they are, for the most part, burned as fuel much like a carbohydrate. In this respect they act more like carbohydrates than like fats.

source: Kiyasu G.Y., et al. 1952. The portal transport of absorbed fatty acids. Journal of Biological Chemistry 199:415

so again I don't see why the high-mcfa (which functions like carbs for quick energy, and energetic feeling, plus the LCFA, plus antimicrobial properties) wouldn't be superior to simply high carb, especially since these MCFA's doesn't circulate around like LCFA's depositing as adipose fat.

And how do you know these mcfa don't stimulate adrenalin, isn't all of your previous knowledge on fatty acids in regard to the most commonly consumed fatty acid sources (LCFA)?

[dime]

Carbs are much more reactive than fat since they need less oxygen to oxidize; fat simply turns into energy slower.
MCFAs may function like carbs in the sense that they are very easily digested, but they'll give you less energy per second than carbs.
If you ask me a balancing carbs/fat would be superior (except in special cases) than either of high fat/low carb or low fat/high carb.

[panacea]

AFAIK, slower but constant energy supply is exactly what is needed.. the biggest problem with wai diet is people can't judge their blood sugar that well, and it's difficult to sip OJ all day long because of work, etc

of course I'm not saying MCFA is a replacement for carbs just that it seems like it could stablize blood sugar more easily plus the antimicrobial effects..

MCFA are in healthy mothers milk, which is what keeps infants from getting lots of infections even though their immune system is weak at first,
and coconut oil is used in IV's at hospitals because it's so easily utilized by the body (random facts I read)

[Oscar]

What is needed (if we're talking about optimal energy provision) depends on the body and the state of activity, and can't really be judged in general. The less active, the higher the fat need; the more active, the higher the carb need.
People have trouble judging their blood sugar because they aren't used to it.
We're talking optimal, and in individual situations adaptations might be necessary, but that'll be deviating from that optimal.

[RRM]

slower but constant energy supply is exactly what is needed.

You need sugars for fast (short-lasting) energy, and fats for slower (long-lasting) energy.
Together, they are perfectly complementary.

the biggest problem with wai diet is people can't judge their blood sugar that well,

Well, actually, learning how to read your blood glucose levels is much easier than learning how to read your blood fatty acid levels.
So, relaying mostly on fatty acids would make controlling your blood energy levels more difficult...

it seems like it could stablize blood sugar more easily

Faster than longer fatty acids, you mean?
Actually, longer fatty acids may complement sugars better, in that regard,
as shorter fatty acids dont last as long as the longer fatty acids.

... plus the antimicrobial effects..

Whether that is an advantage is the question.

MCFA are in healthy mothers milk, which is what keeps infants from getting lots of infections even though their immune system is weak at first,
and coconut oil is used in IV's at hospitals because it's so easily utilized by the body (random facts I read)

As babies grow up, they need to develop their own defense system.
Feeding adults 5-fold more MCFAs (75% in coconut oil) than babies need (15% of fat in human milk), seems like going backward instead of forward.

[cmf]

Hello RRM, I have two questions regarding two of your statements. First, you mention we must consume glucose to feel very energetic, and the glucose is glycerol or glucogenic amino acids. My question is, if one is consuming a low carb diet consisting of lots of protein and fat, cant the protein contain much glucogenic amino acids, which will be suffcient enough to give us the glucose we desire? Second, regarding glucose stimulation adrenaline..is stimulation of adrenaline a good thing? Im asking this because I thought we should minimise adrenaline so we dont look older faster and not to over fatigue our adrenals. Thank you

[overkees]

Of course proteins can take over carbohydrates role. But the question that needs to be asked here is: Why would we prefer protein over carbs? Protein gives a lot of troubles, when it isn't needed it's converted and creates a lot of toxins on it's way. Your kidneys will get an afwul punch when consuming lots of protein. Uric acid is formed when proteins are decomposed. Search it, it's an afwul fella that causes lots of trouble if you have to much of it. And here comes the second part: when they are used as an energy source it costs a lot of energy if you compare it carbs. So you need to ingest more of it, causing more acidity to the system. Eating a lot of proteins is a very very silly thing to do.

Don't believe me? Watch the inuit who only eat fats and proteins to stay in ketosis. They don't get really old over there. People who get oldest on this planet are people who consume lots of carbs. Watch at okinawa, the healthiest part on the planet. They eat 60 percent carbs over there.

I dont understand why people buy in to this high protein high fat myth. Do thy research! Ingest proteins ONLY for rebuilding purposes and NOT for energy. Thank you, bye bye.

[cmf]

thanks overkees,, I appreciate your reply very much.

[overkees]

I must admit, I used to do a ketosis diet for a while. But i slept for ages and ages and that's why i started investigating and researching food even more and came to the conclusion that wai is ultimate.