protein recommendations

[thea]

Hi, (sorry for my english)

I'm a nutritionist and when I read the Wai book, I say that this book is very interesting and informations are differents from the official informations

But, when I read that you need less protein than the recommandations of experts about proteins, I'm little septick about the recommandation of Wai. Yes, many study said that aging need more protein. I do exercice resistance since 30 year's and many study have a recommendation to eat like 1.6 of protein by kilo each day.

I try three weeks to eat less protein, 60 gr a day for 90 kg of weight. I don't lose muscle at all.

I speak with a best nutritionist professor, a specialist of paleolithique too.
I said to him that I don't lose muscle. He said to me that I need to eat more protein because my protein pool go down and I have a risk about depression or bone density.

But after two months, I don't have any probems with depression or bone density and I keep my muscle mass intact.

But my mind change about the official recommandations. I known that this world doesn't say the true and money is more important.

The free e-book change my vision about nutrition.
I do many research on protein, but It's hard to find good articles about that, but if you have more informations I appreciate.

Thank you for all

[feral]

i consume 10% of my calories from protein and have 5% body fat.
what would that best nutritionist professor, a specialist of paleolithique say about this?that i`m deficient.how come if i`m so lean?may be i`m deficient in fat?but i consume lots of fats.to him this is either a lie or a miricle.better listen to your body.if you are deficient you`ll understand it.you`ll probably have a craving for some high protein food if your body lacks protein.i can give you some directions but i think its better first to hear the heavy word of some admin.

[Oscar]

I think Thea is now convinced about Wai's recommendations, but just wants to know more about how it works.

Have you read the protein article? There are also a few sources listed at the bottom.

Basically I think it comes down to this:
The body cannot store amino acids, so everything which isn't needed for maintenance or building blocks is either used for energy or excreted. This means that eating more and more protein beyond that point doesn't add anything beneficial, only costs more vitamins and adds more to the nitrogen load.

We need all amino acids to be able to build something, so quality is more important than quantity. In nature this means it's difficult to consume such a balanced diet that lots of this complete package is consumed. Human milk in the end only contains 1% protein as well, which could be an indication as to what a human child needs.

Logically the bulk of our diet will be sugars and fats, with only a little protein.

[feral]

The body cannot store amino acids

actually it can.it stores about a 100g of aminoacids.this is your so called protein pool.your body stores all kinds of stuff proteins fats sugars(glicogen) vitamins.so you dont die if you cannot obtain food for some period of time.

[Oscar]

So where does it store the amino acids?

[thea]

I think Thea is now convinced about Wai's recommendations, but just wants to know more about how it works.

Have you read the protein article? There are also a few sources listed at the bottom.

Basically I think it comes down to this:
The body cannot store amino acids, so everything which isn't needed for maintenance or building blocks is either used for energy or excreted. This means that eating more and more protein beyond that point doesn't add anything beneficial, only costs more vitamins and adds more to the nitrogen load.

We need all amino acids to be able to build something, so quality is more important than quantity. In nature this means it's difficult to consume such a balanced diet that lots of this complete package is consumed. Human milk in the end only contains 1% protein as well, which could be an indication as to what a human child needs.

Logically the bulk of our diet will be sugars and fats, with only a little protein.

I known that you say the true because I try and it's work but there are not so much study.
I like this diet is more economic too

[RRM]

when I read that you need less protein than the recommandations of experts about proteins

Actually, our recommendations are according to the protein needs of our body according to scientific studies and WHO recommendations.
Our nutrient calculator is also based on those official recommendations.

actually it can.it stores about a 100g of aminoacids.this is your so called protein pool.

There is only one protein pool, and thats in the blood. Protein is not stored anywhere.

[Roman]

Actually, our recommendations are according to the protein needs of our body according to scientific studies and WHO recommendations.
Our nutrient calculator is also based on those official recommendations.

In that case something sounds strange to me.

Simple Nutrient Calculator says RDA for protein is 63 gr. (Men, 25-50 yr, 176 cm., 79 kg.).

Here ("Even fruit contains all required protein") I found that "consuming lots of fruits and 50 gram of fresh raw salmon or -egg yolk daily, even tall men abundantly absorb all the protein they need".


Now, 50 grams of fresh raw salmon are only 10 gr. of protein, 50 gr. of egg yolks are 8.38 gr. of protein.

How could you say "our recommendations are according to the protein needs of our body according to scientific studies and WHO recommendations"?

OOPS... maybe it sounds like a polemic question, I'd just like to learn the diet bases.

[johndela1]

i consume 10% of my calories from protein and have 5% body fat.
what would that best nutritionist professor, a specialist of paleolithique say about this?

None of the recommendations apply to %100 of the people. There are people that tend to be leaner to matter what they do as well as people who tend to carry more body fat. You can't really learn anything with a sample size of one. You may be exceptional.

[RRM]

Simple Nutrient Calculator says RDA for protein is 63 gr. (Men, 25-50 yr, 176 cm., 79 kg.).

RDA, indeed.
This is not our minimal protein requirements (much less) and also not WHO recommendations.

Here I found that "consuming lots of fruits and 50 gram of fresh raw salmon or -egg yolk daily, even tall men abundantly absorb all the protein they need".

Compared to requirements, not recommendations.

How could you say "our recommendations are according to the protein needs of our body according to scientific studies and WHO recommendations"?

We dont recommend 50 gram fish for tall men. (requirements are not the same as recommendations)
Even in the most strict version of this diet, the acne sample diet, we recommend (for men) 100 gram fish for the first 2 weeks. After your skin has cleared up, you can start experimenting with consuming more.

maybe it sounds like a polemic question

I dont understand how this could be a polemic question, but I gladly answer it any way.

[Roman]

I think "requirement" is what my body needs to maintain good health, NOT THE MINIMUM TO SURVIVE, but the OPTIMUM.

I'm not talking about acne or cellulitis. I'm talking about GOOD HEALTH, nothing more nothing less.

Recommendations should be consequent.

So... have you any idea about the OPTIMUM of protein (the ideal) for kg. of body weight, which, I guess, may easily be a range?

I should say THE OPTIMUM FOR AMINOACIDS.

[RRM]

I think "requirement" is what my body needs to maintain good health, NOT THE MINIMUM TO SURVIVE, but the OPTIMUM.

Good point, but what is the optimum?
Most people think more is better (regarding nutrients), but our body disagrees; If your diet is high in a certain nutrient, your body will try to decrease the absorption rate.
Sometimes, the minimum required IS the optimum, as sometimes more is already harmful. For example: the difference between minimum requirements and too much selenium is very small.
Therefore, we should pay close attention to what our body tries to tell us; if it decreases the absorption rate, it says "no, thank you".

Recommendations should be consequent.

They are not.
Internationally, they have always been very different.
Also, they are based on assumptions (x times the minimum requirement) and not on 'lifetime-effects studies'.

So... have you any idea about the OPTIMUM of protein (the ideal) for kg. of body weight, which, I guess, may easily be a range?

It very much depends on what you want.
Do you want to minimize the effects of ammonium?
Do you want to keep your muscle volume high? or do you prefer a 'sparing effect'?

I should say THE OPTIMUM FOR AMINOACIDS.

Ah, thats even a more complex matter, as here also the the balance is an issue. Increasing protein quality would be the first step.

[Roman]

Good point, but what is the optimum?

Ok, let's try to turn this problem upside down.

Optimum is NOT TOO LESS and NOT TOO MUCH.

How much is TOO LESS? 10 grams of proteins (50 gr. of salmon or three egg yolks) is TOO LESS?

How much is TOO MUCH?

This should result in a range, and in an answer like "From ... to ... should be OK!!!".


But... How about other primates?
How much protein do them eat? Not so much, I suppose.
That should possibly give us an idea.

And how about protein contents in human milk?
1.5%? 2%?

Are all of these coincidences?

Are there peoples with low proteins intake?
How about them?

It very much depends on what you want.
Do you want to minimize the effects of ammonium?
Do you want to keep your muscle volume high? or do you prefer a 'sparing effect'?

Nothing about muscle, all about GOOD HEALTH and preventing CHRONIC DEGENERATIVE DISEASES (above all I want my insulin rate neither to fluctuate too much nor raise very much as I read this has to do with cancer).

[RRM]

Optimum is NOT TOO LESS and NOT TOO MUCH.

In the case of protein, its no more than you need, because of the ammonium load.

How much is TOO LESS?

Less than minimally required.
how much protein is minimally required depends on the protein quality, and thats why its about the minimally required amounts for amino acids.
You can find them here:
www.13.waisays.com/protein.htm

How much is TOO MUCH?

More than you need for what you want. (level of muscle volume)

And how about protein contents in human milk?
1.5%? 2%?

1.13% to 1.63%

Nothing about muscle, all about GOOD HEALTH and preventing CHRONIC DEGENERATIVE DISEASES (above all I want my insulin rate neither to fluctuate too much nor raise very much as I read this has to do with cancer).

Regarding good health, you shouldnt consume more protein than required.
Regarding insulin levels, you shouldnt consume large meals, but small meals very frequently.
Regarding cancer you dont have to worry about insulin, as this is only related to the growth-inducing factor in cancer, whereas there is no risk to that when there is no mutation caused by toxins, so that the key to prevention is eliminating the intake of toxins, and not reducing insulin levels.

[Roman]

In the case of protein, its no more than you need, because of the ammonium load.

Ok.

Then WHO RECOMMENDS 0.8 grams per kg. of body weight.
This is RDA for protein, is it ok?

My body weight is 62 kg, and 174 cm. tall... Yes, i'm quite thin.

My daily protein intake is 25 gr., which is almost half of RDA (49.6 gr.).

I'm not so interested in muscles.

Is this sufficient? Am I respecting MINIMUM BODY REQUIREMENTS?
How many grams/kg. is MINIMUM BODY REQUIREMENTS for protein?

Thanks a lot.