Acceptable Wai - fermented products?

[overkees]

Alot of people I know are very interested in consuming healthier products. They are very interested in the wai diet and talk with me about why it is so much healthier. I convinced alot of people of eating less bread, less dairy. I also convinced them about eating alot more fruit and not eating too much vegetables, if they do I recommend they steam it. Also some people seem to be interested in eating animal products more rare (steak only fried for 2-3 minutes) and only eating soft boiled eggs. Also using alot less vegetable oils and adding more olive oil and cow's butter.

But the wai diet is too radical and too hard for people, that is why they can't make the transition. My girlfriend also has alot of social dinners (at least 3 per week) but also wants to live a healthy life. So I thought I'd do some research in what products are the best for people like my girlfriend.

And that is how I discovered fermented products. Like fermented vegetable juice. Fermented vegetable juice increases the vitamin content and reduces phytate and other harmful components. See this article on bread http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 4/abstract . And for rice http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4608002513 . It is stated in this article that 60-94 percent of the phytic acid is removed. It is funny to note that cooking does not do a good job at removing the phytic acid http://www.springerlink.com/content/xk0r3116268682k3/.

I also looked at the protein decomposition. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4602002340 and http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract or this http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract it again must be added that cooking does no good at increasing the quality and digestibillity. Lysine seems to increase alot after fermentation. Lysine is normally very hard to get from plant sources.

[RRM]

But the wai diet is too radical and too hard for people...
... fermented vegetable juice.

How is fermented vegetable juice more acceptable than say... orange juice?
In the restaurant where i work, I serve loads of OJ on a daily basis, to all kinds of people.
Nobody ever asked me for a fermented vegatble juice though.

And for rice http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4608002513 . It is stated in this article that 60-94 percent of the phytic acid is removed.

Its not just the anti nutrients, but also the cooking.

I also looked at the protein decomposition.

Protein loss due to decomposition is not an issue,
as there is no lack of protein in this diet. (you can eat egg yolks, fish, meat)

Lysine is normally very hard to get from plant sources.

This diet is not low in Lysine.

[overkees]

It is not an attack at this diet or an attempt at modifying it. But I posted this for other people on wai who get alot of health and diet related questions, to recommend products to the questioners for eating. Because, in my experience, NO ONE is even willing to give this diet a try if they have no health related problems. But if I can recommend them to eat as wai as they are willing to go, with the addition of other healthy products that are acceptable to manage on the diet, that will be a great plus for them.

I tried hard for +8 months on wai to convince people to also eat like me, and failed miserably. That is what I'm trying to say, people are begging to know what is really healthy, but wai is not an option for them. That is why I tried to come up with the fermented products topic, to discuss whether it is really healthier than conventional food. Even I have troubles getting 100% wai, and I want it very bad!

Like with bread, alot of people keep on eating bread. It is alot easier if you don't eat 20 times on a day to eat bread with long chained carbohydrates for energymanagement. It took me 3-4 months to learn how to cope with the energy signals, so you can imagine that even if someone who has no health problems whatsoever, was crazy enough to try the 100% diet, it would give a lot of troubles in the beginning and they would quit it before it starts to show its great health benefits. That would be terrible. Example: My girlfriend can't survive on 2L OJ + 60 mL OO during the day. I can do this with no problem.

So, please, don't defend wai. Because I'm not even thinking of getting back to bread, even if it's fermented. Instead try to discuss if it could be acceptable to recommend other types of food to people. I gave the fermented vegetable juice as an example. People still think vegetables are very healthy, so if you can recommend fermented vegetables if they are not willing to give up on it, it will be alot better for their health because they can still get to eat vegetables.

[RRM]

Because, in my experience, NO ONE is even willing to give this diet a try if they have no health related problems.

Not true.
Oscar is a good example.

I tried hard for +8 months on wai to convince people to also eat like me

I dont think people can be convinced to do this (or any) diet,
unless they are already (maybe unconsciously) looking for it.

people are begging to know what is really healthy

yes, but only to the extend that it fits in their mindset.

Even I have troubles getting 100% wai, and I want it very bad!

Would you have less trouble with fermented veggies included?

they would quit it before it starts to show its great health benefits.

That actually happens a lot.

That would be terrible.

Yes, we do terrible things to ourselves and others all the time.
Stopping that is the way to a so much better world.

Example: My girlfriend can't survive on 2L OJ + 60 mL OO during the day.

Of course she can.
Put her on a uninhabited island far away from anything else,
with only OJ, OO and egg yolks, and she gladly will.

So, please, don't defend wai.

Im merely responding to things you say, as i always do on this forum.
I understand that you perceive it as defending the diet though.

Instead try to discuss if it could be acceptable to recommend other types of food to people.

That was exactly what i did; i responded to your suggestions.
When i have a suggestions of my own, i will bring it up. (e.g. slow cooking)

IPeople still think vegetables are very healthy, so if you can recommend fermented vegetables if they are not willing to give up on it, it will be alot better for their health because they can still get to eat vegetables.

I think very little people would list 'fermented veggies' as 'hard to give up on'.
More likely candidates are things like chocolate, bread, crisps, cheese, coffee, pasta, pizza etc.

[overkees]

slow cooking is a good example

Yes, the slow cooking is a good example. Alot of people who talked with me about why I do this diet I told about the harm cooking can do. They accept this fact and start paying more attention, but they don't quit cooking, why not? Because they are involved in too much social eating occassions which they arent willing to give up on.

Not true.
Oscar is a good example.

I started the wai diet for my primary goal: vitality and health. I was hoping it could therefore also fix help me with concentration and sleeping troubles, but this is a secondary goal. So I'm an example myself. But what I meant is that Oscar and me are an exception rather than a good example. We were already looking for it. But most people are paying attention when it comes to health, but not doing their own research, like people like us. That's the difference.

yes, but only to the extend that it fits in their mindset.

People consider me totally nuts that I don't eat with them anymore. Eating, especially in a student's life, is a big social thing and most people meet with eachother this way. So yes, I am not getting invited anymore and therefore meet less people. I'm willing to give this up for health, but a lot of people are not. But they really do want a healthier life. So it's not just about their mindset about health but the social part plays a big role too.

Therefore, if I can make a few suggestions, like steaming veggies, eating fermented products, eating more fruit, soft boiling eggs, slow cooking in general, it would result in a much healthier life for them which they can easily fit in to their lifes. And of course, they don't have to follow all my suggestions, but even if it are a few suggestions, just to let them know that some small adaptations can make a big difference, that would give me a good feeling and they would also benefit by getting healthier. I'm not forcing anything on people, just opening their eyes, because there is a lot of bullshit going on. Especially on the internet, when considering health and diet.

I think very little people would list 'fermented veggies' as 'hard to give up on'.

My girlfriend, even if she is bombarded by me with all available information about wai and more, still can't accept the fact that vegetables are not as healthy as they are promoted to be. And with her alot of others. I therefore recommended her to eat fermented vegetables, after telling her that veggies contain alot of antinutrients, like phytic acid, oxalate and nitrite, and that fermenting the veggies does a good job at destroying these, she was really happy and started doing so immediately.

So, I don't want a discussion about why or why not to get involved in other people's health. But a discussion whether fermentated products and a wai diet is a good alternative to the strict wai diet. Or are there still pitfalls I didn't see?

[Oscar]

Actually I wasn't really looking for a different diet, and I was quite happy with being a 'mild' vegetarian (eating fish, eggs and dairy). It was only after Corinne asked me to look into it (and raw diets in general) that I got interested. I do agree though, that most people have to either be interested in health and diets, or have one or more health issues, to be interested in the Wai diet.
The problem for most people is their addiction. Social occasions work very well (psychologically) with addictions (maybe it's an unconscious justification?) and self-confidence (belonging to the/a group).
Veggies (maybe aside from beans) aren't the worst things one can eat, so Wai + veggies is already a pretty big step. Quite a few people I've spoken to are also concerned about their daily coffee and/or tea, and I always tell them that if they can eat Wai with only coffee and/or tea not being on the diet, then we'd talk again.

[dime]

overkees, give this challenge to your girlfriend: don't eat vegetables/fermented products for a month. She'll notice after a month that she's still alive and feeling exactly same as she would without the vegetables :)
I haven't eaten any vegetable (not even tomatoes/cucumbers) for more than a year.. I don't miss or crave them at all.
Just an idea.

I think the slow cooking is awesome btw, it completely unfolds and degrades the tough collagenous meat and then it's just amazing to eat it. I'm experimenting with the lowest possible temperatures + vinegar.

[RRM]

but they don't quit cooking, why not? Because they are involved in too much social eating occassions which they arent willing to give up on.

And giving them the alternative of a Wai diet + veggies + whatever else will not change that,
because it is still a restricted diet, and they dont want to give up on social eating,
which means that they will eat what the others eat when invited to dinner.
Social eating means that you conform yourselve to what the others eat.

I'm willing to give this up for health, but a lot of people are not. But they really do want a healthier life. So it's not just about their mindset about health but the social part plays a big role too.

Yes, and i meant that social eating is also part of that mindset;
if a diet does not fit in, one will be less open to the idea that it might be healthier.
Few people will be open to the Wai diet, or an expanded version because it will resttrict them too much.

Therefore, if I can make a few suggestions, like steaming veggies, eating fermented products, eating more fruit, soft boiling eggs, slow cooking in general, it would result in a much healthier life for them which they can easily fit in to their lifes.

It would still be in conflict with social eating.
Also, the health benefits would get noticed less (bloating, less energetic etc).

even if it are a few suggestions, just to let them know that some small adaptations can make a big difference

The smaller the adaptations, the less convincing the benefits,
the harder it is to 'give up your social life'.

whether fermentated products and a wai diet is a good alternative to the strict wai diet. Or are there still pitfalls I didn't see?

Consuming veggies, you may feel bloated and less energetic.
I think that the Wai diet is so convincing once you try the 100% strict version,
because it makes you feel so much better in many ways.
Without that, its just theory, and less convincing.

[Kasper]

Consuming veggies, you may feel bloated and less energetic.

Why would veggies make you feel bloated and less energetic ?

By the way, I think that RRM is right that fermented products wouldn't make Wai more appealing...
I don't think you could ever get Wai really accepted, like vegetarism, unless some official authorities claim it to be a very healthy diet.

But I do think that you could get make it a little bit more appealing to some out of the box thinking people like us:
1. Slow-cooking is a really important one I think.
2. Better ways to combine coconut oil width fruit juices (so you could get 2:1 carb to fat ratio in juice wich also taste good).
Little bit like adding cheap coconut milk to fruit juice.
3. Making a very good recipe book width good combinations of food.
4. Making Wai icecream width coconut and fruit(!)

[RRM]

They are not digested as well as fruitjuices, and contain less energy.

[Kasper]

Fermented veggies are good digestible.. And you good eat some food higher in energy width it without problems.

I think you will only get bloated by (truly) fermented veggies, because of detox reactions in the gut or because of allergic or allergic-like reactions.

But the reason fermented veggies wouldn't make Wai more appealing IMO is what RRM pointed out in another post:
Fruit juices are consumed much more (much more mainstream) than fermented veggies.

[RRM]

Fermented veggies are good digestible..

Not as properly as juices from ripe fruits.

And you good eat some food higher in energy width it without problems.

Sure, you could compensate for the veggies, but thats the point; they need compensation.
Veggies + Juice makes you feel less energetic than juice + juice.

[Kasper]

Consuming veggies, you may feel bloated and less energetic.

Why would veggies make you feel bloated and less energetic ?

They are not digested as well as fruitjuices, and contain less energy.

Fermented veggies are good digestible..

Not as properly as juices from ripe fruits.

Of course, it is not digested as well as fruitjuices. But same is true for almost all food (including Wai food).
But that doesn't mean you get bloated from all those food.

As long as:
- you are not allergic to that that specific fermented vegetable (but same is true for fruit allergy),
- you don't have serious digestive problems
- the fermented vegetable doesn't cause a typical die-off reaction, which sometimes even happen at a very low amount
I don't see any reason someone will get bloated from fermented vegetables.

To make this clear, I do agree that for most people there is no reason to introduce fermented food.
But I don't think that "people may get bloated from it" is a solid argument not to eat it.
I see it more as, why would you eat a bad tasting food, if you don't need it to be and stay healthy...

[overkees]

I drank 1L of fermented vegetable juice daily in the past (period just before wai) which didn't bloat me at all and it made me feel very good, so I don't know where this comes from.

If I drink just vegetable juice, unfermented, I get this bloated feeling and feel my energy is being drained away and even get headaches.

[Maia]

But I do think that you could get make it a little bit more appealing to some out of the box thinking people like us:
...
2. Better ways to combine coconut oil width fruit juices (so you could get 2:1 carb to fat ratio in juice wich also taste good).
Little bit like adding cheap coconut milk to fruit juice.
...

In this case I think that adding homemade almond milk (or other homemade nutmilk) is also a good way to add fats to juices.