"Meditation" debate

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dime
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by dime »

Something for fun to brighten up this thread a bit :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1UQSLuSqyQ
dime
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by dime »

Coincidentally (didn't actively search for it) I just came across this article (note: haven't fully read it yet):
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... ls/372766/
Novidez
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Novidez »

Oh, meditation is easily misunderstood. Just read a little a bit of the book 'The Power Of Now' (http://www.orgone.ro/doc/The-Power-of-Now.pdf).
Of course, you probably don't have the patience to read it now nor it will make sense for you, but maybe one day, who knows :P
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Aytundra
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Aytundra »

I am quite satisfied with my own self-concept the good, bad, neutral, known, and unknown aspects of it, I am not interested in reading pdfs that calls names on my self-concept and requests that I need to put some some active change to my self-concept, to fast track some processes or to slow down some processes. I can think for my self. I can think for my own self-concept. I don't need any pdfs to overthink and create artificial tasks for me to pursue in the realm of self-concept.
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Novidez
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Novidez »

Aytundra wrote:I am quite satisfied with my own self-concept the good, bad, neutral, known, and unknown aspects of it, I am not interested in reading pdfs that calls names on my self-concept and requests that I need to put some some active change to my self-concept, to fast track some processes or to slow down some processes. I can think for my self. I can think for my own self-concept. I don't need any pdfs to overthink and create artificial tasks for me to pursue in the realm of self-concept.
Hmm, you seem pretty convinced with that. But, do you really think that you think by yourself? Or do you think based on your education, ethics, morals, from what you have read and listen? You will conclude that, in the end, you don't think by yourself at all: those thoughts you have in your mind were also created by "pdfs", so to speak. Don't criticize if you didn't even give a try. That's the same thing as criticizing a band without really hearing their music, come on.
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Aytundra
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Aytundra »

Before exposure to formal education, morals, ethics, and pdfs, I developed how to think (and of my self-concept) before exposure to these things.
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Novidez
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Novidez »

I'm pretty sure that after being born, you didn't have developed anything yet. And if you are talking as teen, I'm also sure that you have changed your self-concept over time till today (based once again on what you have learned and seen). But, even there, you were already exposed.
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Aytundra
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Aytundra »

I added to my self-concept over time.
Addition does not necessarily change the core of which things are added to.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
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Aytundra
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Aytundra »

So I figured out a clever way to get out of meditation and ignore the speaker.
I went to class this monday, with the Premise and Absolute belief that "Squirrels don't meditate."
(and even if they did, human-biologist-ecologist-physiologists-neurologists will have a hard time proving a squirrel chose to meditate.)

'we will begin with our class with meditation'
I am squirrel.

'...breatthhhee'
I am a squirrel, can't make me.

' and....if your mind wanders'
don't know whaat you are sayying.

I just throw myself into squirrel mode, and I can roll my eyes at the speaker.
Whaaatt...i don't understand your human gibberish language?... i am day dreaming about the acorn that Scrat would run after.

Works excellently.

and after those 10 minutes, i simply answer truthfully to my colleagues,

Did you meditate?
- nope

Again?
- yup

and they go off talking about their experience, some positive, some negative

and i am like, yeah that is an artificial human aactivity.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
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Oscar
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Oscar »

I think meditation is a tool, and as any tool can be useful, depending on what you want to achieve (with it). It can be practiced in different ways, and as such isn't limited to sitting with eyes closed trying to 'empty' the mind. For example sports people and musicians train to filter out distractions and concentrate fully on what they need to do, usually by endless repetitions. In my opinion that is also a kind of meditation. I don't think there is anything mystical about it, like you'd need meditation to achieve enlightenment (whatever that means anyway).
Novidez
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Novidez »

Oscar wrote:I don't think there is anything mystical about it
Exactly. I think people associate with something mystical because of religion essentially.
Oscar wrote:like you'd need meditation to achieve enlightenment (whatever that means anyway)
Ahah, that's a funny thing, because some people believe that you have to meditate a lot, all day if possible to achieve enlightenment. The more, the best. They make it a goal.
There's a funny story regarding that (probably it's not true, but it is still funny) about a monk that he went to a isolated place where he could meditate all day. The only thing that he had to worry was food, basically. After months and months of meditation, he said that he became enlightened.
Then, when he was going back home, he had to buy a fly ticket. However, the queue was very huge. Since he was enlightened, he was always at peace with himself: "A huge queue, ok, it is what it is. There's no reason to be mad because of it".
When it finally was his time to buy the ticket the lady said "I'm sorry, but the fly you want it is on the other queue.". After that, the monk was really mad and starting arguing with the lady. He suddenly realized "Where, where is all my enlightenment?"

The thing about enlightenment, as far as I understand it, it is basically transcending your ego, your personality, your body so to speak. If you have an ego, all your actions are based on it. Without it, your actions would not be on a need state, or to be better/worse than, or to achieve something, etc. Simply, all your actions would't be so personal.

For example: if I get good grades, people will say that I am smart, intelligent, etc; I can start doing volunteer because I know that people will start saying that I am a good person, that I care about others etc. This will boost my ego. Now: are my actions relying on my true identity? Or just mind things (ego)? I may be helping people with needs, but I may have other intentions behind it. So I'm not really helping them, I am thinking only about myself. Also, that volunteering would probably not last long. It's interesting, because in this example, if I was suddenly very angry with some person, that person would be very shocked and confused because I was supposedly a very nice guy that help others. He would think: "Who are you after all? Are you the good guy or the bad guy?"
And that's the point of enlightenment. You're none of those things. You just are. In that situation you seem to be a good person, and in other situation you seem to be just the opposite. But none of them are your true identity.

You can call yourself Oscar (curiously it could be any other name) and you immediately associate with a story of who you are. But it is exactly that: only a story. And that story doesn't really tell who you are. Only on the superficial world. Because if you suddenly had amnesia, I'm pretty sure you would still exist.
Removing all the concepts about 'you', the past, the future, the thoughts, the mind, the money, your possessions... I repeat, you would still exist. So, if you are not any of those things, who are you then?
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Aytundra
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Aytundra »

Oscar wrote:For example sports people and musicians train to filter out distractions and concentrate fully on what they need to do, usually by endless repetitions.
But they train with a proper athlete or musician, not someone off the streets.
That way they don't pull a tendon, or get carpel tunnel syndrome.

i don't want to give permission for other people to influence my mind.
i am okay. I am not stressed. I don't need you.
I don't need to empty my mind (of stress).
That is their invention "you look stress", or "students are stressed", okay, that is their opinion.
I am entitled to say, I disagree with you.
I don't need to participate.
It is okay to say no to help.
It is okay to say no to help on problems-invented-perceived-and-overblown by others.

If someone off the streets walked by,
and said,
you are not an athlete
you are not a musician
do this, do that, do that, and do that,
uhmm, it is okay,
i am quite fine,
i am quite satisfied that i am not an athlete,
i am not a musician
i don't need training,
leave me alone, if i feel like i want to be a athlete tomorrow or a musician the next month, i will find an olympic medallist or some orchestra conductor to teach me, but not you. Sorry.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
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Oscar
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Oscar »

It also depends on what your definition of enlightenment is. One definition I've heard (or read?) is: Enlightenment is when intuition and ratio are the same. I like that one. Do you need meditation to achieve that? No.

What you are, and how much you let the opinion of others influence that image, is a matter of choice.

Speaking of choice, I'm always a proponent of free choice, so I agree with you, Aytundra.
Novidez
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Novidez »

What you described there Aytundra, for me, is also how Education works. You know that we live in a world where massification is happening more and more. If you are different from others, you are either dumb or you have a mental disorder. Sometimes I'll rather leave some classes too because they seem completely useless to me. But we are trapped in this vicious cycle. If this is what is happening in that moment and I can't change it, well, maybe I'll try to accept it and embrace it like any other thing rather than arguing and create a problem out of it. Perhaps in the end, I'll give my opinion and try to create a better solution. When you disobeyed it, you didn't change anything at all. You just liked the feeling of being rebel, nothing more. And making fun of it or calling it a fad, won't make any difference either.
Aytundra wrote: leave me alone, if i feel like i want to be a athlete tomorrow or a musician the next month, i will find an olympic medallist or some orchestra conductor to teach me, but not you. Sorry.
Ahah, it would be quite funny if that olympic medallist or that orchestra conductor said something to you like "Well, Aytundra, we have start practising meditation." or better "Aytundra, meditation is very important, so I bring with me a great spiritual teacher to teach you how to meditate. He even brought the bell with him!" :p
Oscar wrote:It also depends on what your definition of enlightenment is. One definition I've heard (or read?) is: Enlightenment is when intuition and ratio are the same. I like that one. Do you need meditation to achieve that? No.
Pretty interesting that definition too.
And yeah, meditation is just a tool as you said before.
Oscar wrote:What you are, and how much you let the opinion of others influence that image, is a matter of choice.
Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. If I was the president of the USA, I'll had to follow some norms. But some of those norms are just...why?
And that's the point, if you don't follow them, you will be judged.
How the society itself works is constantly influencing us.
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Aytundra
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Re: "Meditation" debate

Post by Aytundra »

Novidez wrote:
Aytundra wrote: leave me alone, if i feel like i want to be a athlete tomorrow or a musician the next month, i will find an olympic medallist or some orchestra conductor to teach me, but not you. Sorry.
Ahah, it would be quite funny if that olympic medallist or that orchestra conductor said something to you like "Well, Aytundra, we have start practising meditation." or better "Aytundra, meditation is very important, so I bring with me a great spiritual teacher to teach you how to meditate. He even brought the bell with him!" :p
What is with that awful bell?
no bells
aytundra is allergic to bells.
If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, did it and does it exist? :roll:

Well dear olympic medallist and orchestra conductor meditations are so unimportant, I would rather eat beef medallions and gaze at orchids.
Than to pick through time, and conduct a storm in the mind.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
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