"Meditation" debate

[Aytundra]

I think meditation is a tool, and as any tool can be useful, depending on what you want to achieve (with it).

A tool is not good or bad, a tool is neutral.
A tool only becomes good or bad, depending on how the tool-user use it. if the tool-user has the ability to use a tool safely, and that also depends on what the tool-user and or the director of the tool-user wants to achieve with it.

Step 1: Identify a REAL Need for that tool.
There is a real need for the tool, and an artificial need for the tool.
There is also my need, and other people's need for the tool.
Real need is like, "I need fire to cook beans, to remove antinutrients."
Artificial need is like, "I need fire to cook beans, to eat a cooked meal."
Extrinsic artificial need is like, "Beans are part of a healthy diet, cook beans as a recipe in this cooking class. I am then directed to cook beans (if I took a cooking class)." {This activity is so ridiculous, it does not stem from someone's actual need of hunger and needing to eat food with a kitchen empty of supplies except for beans that are available. It might stem from the fact that the cooking teacher has no new ideas for cooking and a limited budget such that beans are normally labelled as inexpensive and healthy, so that it becomes a good idea for a cooking activity to fill a cooking course of 24 lectures.}.

Step 2: Use the tool with ability and safety.
After we picked a "real" need for the tool.
In this case "fire", because I have nothing left in the kitchen to eat and supermarkets are several towns away and they are all closed for a holiday long weekend. I conclude I have to cook beans to eat, to survive.

Then is the problem of using the tool properly.
Slow cooking beans at low temperatures will not make beans safe. The low temperature does not deactivate the anti-nutrients in beans.
See, what I mean, it is dangerous to use a tool without knowledge, and safety.
I also need to make sure my kitchen is clean and not flying with flammable materials and gas, so that the fire I cook with does not burn my kitchen.
It might be better if I asked someone that has cooked beans to show me how to cook beans.

Step 3: Using the tool continuously and excessively without review of identifying a "real" need is just as bad. Always go to step 1 and identify a "real" need for using a tool.
For example, for the next month I decided that I will have only beans for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Eventually I am not listening to my body's nutrient needs, and that beans will make my diet inadequate.


Therefore.
Yeah meditation as a tool. I am cool with that.
Should it be used?
Depends.
Was it my idea that i needed it?
If no.
Well that tool goes into the shed to collect dust. bye bye.

[Oscar]

And that's the point, if you don't follow them, you will be judged.

The question is whether you let (potential) judgment influence your choices, and ultimately your life, or not, which in itself is also a choice

[Novidez]

The question is whether you let (potential) judgment influence your choices, and ultimately your life, or not, which in itself is also a choice

True... However, I think that decision fundamentally depends if a person is in peace with himself or not.

[Oscar]

Yeah, with a blatantly non-conformist conscious choice that tends to be necessary. Then again, the Wai diet is also a non-conformist choice...

[Kasper]

I still don't truly understand this intense dislike of meditation Aytundra, but yes, everybody likes different things.

I mean, if your teacher forces you to listen to a song of Justin Bieber before you start the class, I can understand such a rebellious behaviour. Nobody should force you to go such torture.

But this is just relaxing a bit. But if daydreaming about being squirrel relaxes you, well, I guess that is the goal of the teacher, just that people are relaxed and have better focus in the class afterwards. So go for that Maybe that is your form of meditation.

[Novidez]

Then again, the Wai diet is also a non-conformist choice...

And as all non-conformist choices, if that is getting you good results, it tends to be easier to keep up with it.

I mean, if your teacher forces you to listen to a song of Justin Bieber before you start the class, I can understand such a rebellious behaviour. Nobody should force you to go such torture.

Even there, I think our behaviour completely changes if you remain ignorant a priori regarding the artist before listening to the song. Without knowing that the song is from Justin Bieber, there's a viable possibility that you may end liking it. But, if you know it's from him since the beginning, you will automatically say that you don't like it even without listening to his music firstly, because, well, it's Bieber.
I think the same applies with the way Aytundra interprets meditation, in my opinion.

But this is just relaxing a bit. But if daydreaming about being squirrel relaxes you, well, I guess that is the goal of the teacher, just that people are relaxed and have better focus in the class afterwards. So go for that Maybe that is your form of meditation.

Precisely! This complements what I was saying. If the teacher didn't mention the word 'meditation' and said something like "Today we are going to imagine that we are squirrels", perhaps it would be completely different how she would interpret and experience the idea of it.
However, for example, meditation = medication; bell's song = Pavlov's dog; etc... All these negative associations make her dislike even more the concept of meditation. But all these associations could be the complete opposite if the exercise was to imagine that you were a squirrel (supposing, of course, this is a good experience). And not realizing that it could potentially be a type of meditation.

[Aytundra]

"we will begin our class with mindful meditation."
[Crack, the lightning strikes]

"is it raining? Let's hope our car windows are up, I hope my car windows are rolled up."
rain
Rain sounds.
Rain I can hear the building's ceiling.

"focus on your breath"
The trace of rain splashing against metal roofing,
channeling the rain to a pipe,
probably.

"draw your attention back to your breath"
Is it a trapezoid?
Is it a vent?
Rain splashing against the metal.
hmm like Millike's oil drop experiment.
like light through prism passing out as colour and reflected off paper back to the center,
or like electrons bouncing back, plundering the thompson raisin bun model of the nucleus
could i figure out that shape?
i wonder what is that shape of the vesicle, that carries water from the roof?

"gently bring yourself back to your breath"
vesicle, vessel i ment
i think it is trapezoid
the water is travelling on metal for about 10 tiles(foot) to the doorway's direction, probably down the hall and to a pvc pipe

[Without warning, the prof clangs that bell.]
"dtiinnng"
That aragggh bell!

The sound crashed against my ears, against my right frontal lobe parietal lobe, less of occipital lobe, as the prof was clanging dish pots like to the right of me at the front of the classroom; The wave of sound Like an asymptote slanted ajacent to my temporal sulcus above my broca and wernickes, except on the mirroring side which is the right hemisphere which I have no name for as I barely have any vocabulary of studying the right hemisphere, knocking my cerebral fluids against the cortex. I can feel it like a splash of sound, travelling like a ripple through the brain's soft tissue. Interesting that it stops, it doesnt reach past into my left hemisphere, but maybe i am just losing focus, I am opening my eyes now... and i can see the half lit classroom.

The plain cymbal bell sound. Tone like a gong.
Without harmony, without chords, without a melody.
Eeks, " dtgooononeeeene..."
Arrgh how it echos against my ear drum,
"dtooooononneeeenene"
there goes a few more cells of cilia.

The study of the building's rain drainage system, was soft and mild sound. Nature's sound. It was rhythmic, it was gentle, i can almost smell the calm rain in the air. The trickle against metal. The splash against windows. The swamp against cement..
Cymbals are inhumane.

I turned my swirly chair around, to my group's table.
"I saw you meditate" - colleague.
- "no i didn'T!"
"yes, you did, i saw you with your eyes closed" - colleague.
- "no, i Didn'T!"
"well, you had your eyes closed" - colleague.
- "shrugs, closing eyes doesn't mean anything. [swivels chair around and away]"
[arms crossed, ( I have so much to work on in this class.). First be grumpy, Second oppose everthing the prof says. Third, that damn bell. Fourth, ]

"I am going to read a story"
"The book is, Anh's anger, ... isn't it nice that Anh can make friends with his anger? Anh grows up in a family with buddism"
[yeah, buddhism. Not into that.]

"Today we will be talking about 'Defense Mechanisms' "
"Has anyone heard of Defense Mechanisms?"
(Ah, something I am good at. Plants have defense mechanisms, they have anti-nutrients, they have chemicals to ward off predators...")
(Insects have defense mechanism, pheromones, release of fatty acids if they are dead ants...)
(There is also symbiosis too, and we need to protect coral reefs that have such a nice symbiotic relationship with tropical fish. ...)

"Defense Mechanisms are: Denial, Displacement, Intellectualization, Projection, Rationalization, Regression, Repression."
(Oh, the socio-psychological stuff...uhm yeah I am clearly in the wrong class.)
[Spins chair back to the table, and takes notes.]

[Aytundra]

I still don't truly understand this intense dislike of meditation Aytundra, but yes, everybody likes different things.

I mean, if your teacher forces you to listen to a song of Justin Bieber before you start the class, I can understand such a rebellious behaviour. Nobody should force you to go such torture.

But this is just relaxing a bit. But if daydreaming about being squirrel relaxes you, well, I guess that is the goal of the teacher, just that people are relaxed and have better focus in the class afterwards. So go for that Maybe that is your form of meditation.

A) Meditation wanna be uses "cymbals," as much as coin dropping in a hat magic-trick magician uses a "wand".
Meditation fads, use cymbals, or bells, as a cheesy meditation show, as much as street-magicians holds out a hat.
It is cheesy.
It is dumb.

B) it can be a ear hazard. decibels. Difference between silence and a flat bell is like a terrible contrast.
No musician could cherish that.
It is just trashy.

Justin Bieber, probably would be better than a cymbal.

C) Daydreaming is nice. It is like a sugar pill.
Meditation can be fierce. It is like those over-the-counter meds, that average people won't react, but people with allergies might not be able to take them. The bell is like those allergenic ingredients.

There are no daydreaming fad going around.
Only the McMindfulness Meditation Cymbal things. Which are just like Bieber concerts plaguing minds' sanity.

[Aytundra]

Then again, the Wai diet is also a non-conformist choice...

And as all non-conformist choices, if that is getting you good results, it tends to be easier to keep up with it.

No,
It does not matter if it is a non-conformist choice and or a conformist choice,
the fact that a choice, any choice, yields good results, allows that choice to have a higher chance to be choosen the next time.

Process is before product.
Ease and or the lack of ease is a summary of the feelings experienced of the process, after results.
Washing dishes, is before dishes lands on a dish rack to be judged good (cleaned) or bad (you missed a spot).
Good results do not change the physical process of an activity; you will still need to soap, rinse, and use the same amount of time to wash a similar load of dishes; it is not any easier, same time, same money for soap, water, the cost is the same, the fatigue in your arms is the same.
Good results change the emotional-cognitive motivation to pursue the activity the next time.

If someone gave you a reward after every dish washing activity "Good job.", "Wow, you cleaned everything meticulously"...verbal stickers, or prizes "here is money for cleaning the dishes", or an escape from negative "that mug feels clean now, letting my sibling wash it is like picking up dirty mugs all the time, i like my own cleaning methods."
And from that point on it becomes more interesting to wash the dishes because of the good results,perhaps you will have an illusion it got "easier to keep up with it", but if external prizes ceases, no one tells you anything about the good job you did on the dishes (whether it is true or false), and for the next half year you washed every dish and forgot how bad your sibling does the dishes, dishes then becomes a regular normal chore, perhaps without any additive motivation, other than the fact that you get clean plates the next time you eat. You just have to do it. Unless you choose to eat junkfood from fastfood restaurants of which you can dump the paper plates into a garbage with ease.

I mean, if your teacher forces you to listen to a song of Justin Bieber before you start the class, I can understand such a rebellious behaviour. Nobody should force you to go such torture.

Even there, I think our behaviour completely changes if you remain ignorant a priori regarding the artist before listening to the song. Without knowing that the song is from Justin Bieber, there's a viable possibility that you may end liking it. But, if you know it's from him since the beginning, you will automatically say that you don't like it even without listening to his music firstly, because, well, it's Bieber.

No, it does not change the fact that bells are ugly for the ears.
I hold a Grudge towards a bell.
And I am happy to defend that Grudge, because the use of that bell is non-sense.

But this is just relaxing a bit. But if daydreaming about being squirrel relaxes you, well, I guess that is the goal of the teacher, just that people are relaxed and have better focus in the class afterwards. So go for that Maybe that is your form of meditation.

Precisely! This complements what I was saying. If the teacher didn't mention the word 'meditation' and said something like "Today we are going to imagine that we are squirrels", perhaps it would be completely different how she would interpret and experience the idea of it.
However, for example, meditation = medication; bell's song = Pavlov's dog; etc... All these negative associations make her dislike even more the concept of meditation. But all these associations could be the complete opposite if the exercise was to imagine that you were a squirrel (supposing, of course, this is a good experience). And not realizing that it could potentially be a type of meditation.

You described there Guided Meditation.

Guided Meditation = Extrinsic Ideas and Motivation.
Not into that. If someone told me to imagine squirrels. I will oppose that.
Imagining things based on someone else's interest is so trivial and pointless, it usually does not actually have any real importance.

Daydreaming = yourself + your idea, your imagination
Meditation = bell holder + yourself + their idea + your imagination
Daydreaming does not require a bell. Much superior to Cymbal-Meditation

An analogy is:
Ice cream = Daydreaming
Ice cream + crumbled peanut = Meditation, peanuts are pointless (bells are pointless), some people are allergic to nuts.

Ice cream in general is not needed in a human diet, daydreaming is unnecessary, time should be spent less on daydreaming and more on solving real problems.

Meditation is a subset of Daydreaming.
Meditation is a subset of Endless Repetition.
Meditation is a subset of Activity using a bell.
Meditation is a subset of External ideas or control.

Meditation is a hodgepodge of interactions on a Venn Diagram.
The product Meditation, is worthless to me.

Endless Repetition includes: Pavlov's Classical Conditioning, Skinner's Operant Conditioning, Negative Reinforcements, Positive Reinforcements, Sports exercise, Music instrument practice. The brain cells are reinforced to make neurons connect in the same patterns again and again, strengthening neural connections. There is nothing wrong with strengthening neural connections, and allowing pruning and grooming of brain cells, but make sure that you are pruning these connections to something YOU want to achieve, and that it is of REAL importance and not of SOMEONE-ELSES goals and of ARTIFICIAL importance.

[RRM]

ha, ha, this thread is really entertaining

[Aytundra]

Yeah, with a blatantly non-conformist conscious choice that tends to be necessary. Then again, the Wai diet is also a non-conformist choice...

On the topic of "non-conformist"....

Can there be situations of:
1) nonconformist + that looks non-conforming
2) nonconformist + that looks conforming
3) conformist + that looks non-conforming
4) conformist + that looks conforming

[Oscar]

Yes.

[Aytundra]

...and how bout this?
5) null-conformist + that looks non-conforming
6) null-conformist + that looks conforming

null-conformist = i.e. Someone who has not been given the choice on being conforming or being nonconforming to a situation, but other jumping-to-conclusion-people assume that they are conforming or non-conforming, simply because that person is observed to be inside or in proximity to a situation.

[Oscar]

Define "null-conformist".

[Aytundra]

For example a thief steals from a victim in a crowd at the train station just before the train arrives.
In terms of morals:
The thief is non-conforming to the idea of not stealing.
By-standers looking on at the thief is conforming to the idea of not stealing.
By-standers standing nearby not-looking or not-aware or not-understanding of the situation has no pretense to steal or not to steal.