hallucinogens

[Mr. PC]

This quote from John Holt's book Freedom and beyond, about education and other things, may be relevant.

"More important, what makes our truly inventive and creative thinkers, whether
political, artistic, or scientific, what sets them apart from the great run of us, is, above all,
that they can still play with their minds. They have not forgotten how to do it nor grown
ashamed nor afraid of it. They like it, and they do it every chance they have; it is as
natural to them as breathing. The ordinary, ‘serious,’ non-playful man cannot escape
things as they are; though he is always talking about ‘facing reality’, he is as trapped by
his notion of reality as any rat in a cage. For him, whatever is, is all there can be. The
playful man is always saying, and cannot help saying, ‘But suppose things weren’t this
way, didn’t have to be this way. Let’s just for the fun of it imagine what might happen if
this were different, if we did that instead of this ...’ Just for the fun of it. Now we know
from experience that out of such play may come, and often do come, ideas that may
change the whole shape of human life and thought But the playful man doesn’t
necessarily start with this in mind. He doesn’t say to himself, like certain fanatics at their
sports, ‘If I grind my teeth together and play hard enough, I will come up with a great
idea.’ He plays for fun, ready to discard as useless and without regret, as he has many
times in the past, most of the ideas that come to him. When a good one comes along, then
a more directed thinking may begin, less like what the ordinary man calls ‘play’, more
like what he would call ‘work*, though to die truly creative person there is no difference."

I think that a chemical like DMT could be seen as a kind of toy for playing with your mind. So part of the reason would simply be because it's fun, and part of it could be because, as the quote points out, playing with your mind can result in new ideas.

[RRM]

This quote from John Holt's book Freedom and beyond, about education and other things, may be relevant.

Yes, but i dont think he would encourage you to take drugs to do so...
Do you?

[Mr. PC]

No, I don't think he would.

[fictor]

Well, i think that actual experiences help us with getting life experience,
which may make you more wise regarding the issues of life,
and that drug induced experiences help you with getting experience with drugs,
which may increase your knowledge about what drugs can do.

I disagree. You can not isolate experiences and say that one type of experience is only valid or useful in one specific aspect of life. Any given experience will learn you something, and that something could be applied in any area of life, wherever it might fit. Besides, what makes drug induced experiences different to "actual experiences"? And in what way does this then make them less useful?

In the end it's gambling with your life.

Not really. All the traditional psychedelics are virtually non toxic (in doses within the "theraputic" spectre), and people seldom or never die from these substances. Nor does the majority end up ruining heir life in other ways. I do not advocate anyone to use illegal substances, but the fact is that many of these substances are not nearly as dangerous to the users or the society as many believes.

a similar benefit could be derived from chemicals

Like what?

Several benefits could come from taking psychedelics. One would be deep, meaningfull and even spiritual experiences, gratly impacting the persons life (usually in a positive way), like the test subjects in the study discussed here: http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/16/m ... long-term/

To study the long term health effects

There is no point to study the health effects of hallucinogens.
You dont need them for anything.

To blow of an entire group of substances as "useless" medicinally, despite of the research indicating the contrary, is rash and foolish, in my opinion. Psychedelics may help with cluster headaches, and several kinds of mental disorders, like depresion (http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/15/a ... o-quickly/) Of course, this does not mean that mentally ill should gobble acid like candy, but it means that the substances deserve more research.

Some may be enlightened by it

Enlightened?
By drugs?
How does that work?

No one knows exactly how it works. Its like asking how the brain works It does, however, happen. If by enlightenment one means a person having a spiritual experience, crating a strong and lasting feeling of belief in something bigger, uniting us all, and a lasting sense of calmness.

[dime]

No one knows exactly how it works. Its like asking how the brain works :) It does, however, happen. If by enlightenment one means a person having a spiritual experience, crating a strong and lasting feeling of belief in something bigger, uniting us all, and a lasting sense of calmness.

Why is this important at all? I should eat something so that I have these spiritual experiences (as I understood that's the goal and "pros" of drugs). Why?
How will it help me in my everyday life?
These drugs anyway create a false reality in your head; obviously there's no such bigger thing uniting us all.
Can't I just believe in some religion? Do meditation?

[overkees]

Well, if you're really interested in what hallucinogens do at the receptor level this is a very good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1So0zwuws by one of the godfathers of research on psychedelics David Nichols.

It basically comes down to the point that we have learned to categorize many experiences into emotional protocols, a certain pattern. So that when we have an everyday experience, we automatically rely on our subconscious patterns we made previously in life.
If we take the psilocybine muchroom for instance, we have the extraordinary feature that we don't have to rely so strong at our previously made patterns and can therefore create new ones, or fade other ones away. This gives a huge boost of creativity and understanding, not to forget the impact is has on neurosciences. This creativity helps alot with describing your emotions and defining them better which relieves alot.
You will also be forced to be very retrospective and introspective due to the substances and there is a big chance you will be confronted with emotional problems that you didn't want to face before, and therefore sometimes the psychedelic experience can be a painful one when not done correctly.

Now dime, you are really doing some brutal preassumptions there. You blatantly state that there is no bigger thing. That's your gut feeling maybe, but it's not a truth itself. Neither is the assumption that there is something bigger. So please, have that discussion in another part of the forum.

I think that, since everything is connected, and the dissolving of the ego (aka a spiritual experience), the experience of not-being yourself and coming back into your ego driven consciousness can certainly give a lot of help in seeing things in the broader picture and not being such a whiner with all our little problems in life and get on with it and start doing something about it. I not only think this, but have experienced it several times.

And yes, this not experiencing ego and then coming back is of course also the case when in a coma, but your senses will first shut down instead of going into overdrive. This is a big difference. During a spirtual experience, there are no filters and everything just is as it is.

I find it very easy and shortsighted to discredit the drug induced spirtual experience. Please try to keep an open mind and do some research before discreditting something.

[dime]

Now dime, you are really doing some brutal preassumptions there. You blatantly state that there is no bigger thing. That's your gut feeling maybe, but it's not a truth itself. Neither is the assumption that there is something bigger. So please, have that discussion in another part of the forum.

I don't think we've seen any proof for this bigger thing so far, so of course I'd believe that it doesn't exist more than it does. But as anything not proven there's a possibility.

I think that, since everything is connected, and the dissolving of the ego (aka a spiritual experience), the experience of not-being yourself and coming back into your ego driven consciousness can certainly give a lot of help in seeing things in the broader picture and not being such a whiner with all our little problems in life and get on with it and start doing something about it. I not only think this, but have experienced it several times.

If they really help you in this way, then those who act like that (complain about every little thing, I know a bunch of such people) should certainly try them, in my opinion. Life will get a lot more productive on Earth :) I'm extremely annoyed by people who just sit, talk about their problems, and wait for someone else to fix their lives.

I find it very easy and shortsighted to discredit the drug induced spirtual experience. Please try to keep an open mind and do some research before discreditting something.

I'm just being too realistic and logical, but you're right. What I'm trying to say is, if your mind is fine and clear, don't try to fuck it up with some drugs for the sake of finding some higher powers and spirituality and whatever.

[Mr. PC]

"If we take the psilocybine muchroom for instance, we have the extraordinary feature that we don't have to rely so strong at our previously made patterns and can therefore create new ones, or fade other ones away. This gives a huge boost of creativity and understanding, not to forget the impact is has on neurosciences."

This someone frightens me as I believe my current way of thinking to be very effective. Although I may be interpreting this incorrectly.

"This creativity helps alot with describing your emotions and defining them better which relieves alot."

I am interested in being able to better understand my emotions.

"Now dime, you are really doing some brutal preassumptions there. You blatantly state that there is no bigger thing. That's your gut feeling maybe, but it's not a truth itself. Neither is the assumption that there is something bigger. So please, have that discussion in another part of the forum."

There's no evidence for any kind of concious 'higher power', so a drug that triggered belief in such a thing I'd agree would be detrimental. However there is evidence for such things as 'collective subconciousness'. It really depends on what is meant by 'something bigger'. I think the term is too loose to be meaningful. I'm not in to having a 'spiritual' experience as in religious/voodoo/supernatural, but if by spiritual you simply mean deap/meaningful, that is something else.

"I don't think we've seen any proof for this bigger thing so far, so of course I'd believe that it doesn't exist more than it does. But as anything not proven there's a possibility."

What you should say is that we haven't seen any significant evidence. Proof is not needed to believe in a thing, and very rare; evidence is more appropriate. But if 'bigger thing' means God/Higher Power etc I share your sentiment.

"I'm just being too realistic and logical, but you're right. What I'm trying to say is, if your mind is fine and clear, don't try to fuck it up with some drugs for the sake of finding some higher powers and spirituality and whatever."

This is my fear. Part of me is simply curious and wants to experiment with my own mind; so no objective benefit there.

But what I want is the evidence that it *does* fuck up your mind.

[fictor]

No one knows exactly how it works. Its like asking how the brain works It does, however, happen. If by enlightenment one means a person having a spiritual experience, crating a strong and lasting feeling of belief in something bigger, uniting us all, and a lasting sense of calmness.

Why is this important at all? I should eat something so that I have these spiritual experiences (as I understood that's the goal and "pros" of drugs). Why?

If you do not feel a need for this, simply do not do it. Many people, however, strive for these types of experiences and the knowledge that can be derived from them.

How will it help me in my everyday life?

Every experience give you some kind of new knowledge and experience that you may use in your everyday life. Certain scientists, creatives, artists, painters, writers etc. claims psychedelics helps them in a unique way. There is now way of knowing how a psychedelic experience might help you (it might not help you at all), but the risk of trying it out just to see is probably not as great as many believes (acid does not "fry" your brain etc.). If you are a person suffering from depression, ketamine might help. If you are suffering from cluster headaches, LSD og psilocybin might help. If you are suffering from PTSD, MDMA (in combination with therapy) might help. These are substances with a medicinal potential. To say anything else is either lying or being ignorant.

These drugs anyway create a false reality in your head; obviously there's no such bigger thing uniting us all.

Once again I must ask; what makes this reality and these experiences less "real" than any other kind of state? And even if it is less "real", why does this make the experience less valid?

Can't I just believe in some religion?

One cant just chose to believe in some religion. Besides, what makes religion and meditation any more valid or any safer than taking psychedelics? And cant one do both?

[dime]

But I don't have any depression, headaches, PTSD, etc, why would I take any of these drugs then?
What will happen if I'm not depressed and I take ketamines, will they make me incredibly undepressed, possibly to unhealthy levels?
It would be like taking medications for treating hepatitis, when I don't even have any hepatitis for example.
There must be some good reason that these hallucinogenic drugs are illegal, just like serious drugs for treating various diseases are illegal without a doctor's prescription.

[Kasper]

I don't think we've seen any proof for this bigger thing so far, so of course I'd believe that it doesn't exist more than it does. But as anything not proven there's a possibility.

Your reasoning seems to be:
If there is no proof --> than I believe it is not true (more than it is true).

But let's find the proof for the basis of science:
Measurement/observations that are not dependent on the observer (i.e., is objective), that appears the same no matter who observes it, give us true information about "reality".

This is an "assumption" all scientist (including me) believe in. But there is no proof for it. True, it makes much "intuitive" sense, but I could imagine a reality where this assumption is actually false.
René Descartes came up with a theory where he concluded we can't be sure about that assumption. The only thing he concluded he could be sure of is that "he thinks".
The matrix did another interpretation of how reality could look like if that assumption is actually false.

And you can come up with a thousand ideas. Maybe there is some creature controlling us, who programmed this world (in our head), and who made up all those laws of nature. I mean if you really going to think of it, you can come up with other explanations why all those things we observe seems to make sense. You won't be able to prove it, and you won't be able to disprove it.
But most of them make not so much "intuitive" sense, and besides that it only make life much complicated than it already is. So most of us (read: scientist) tend not to believe in any of those theories. And set this science assumption (above) as being true.

But as there is no proof for this, and we follow your (dimes) reasoning.
If there is no proof --> than I believe it is not true (more than it is true).

Can I than conclude that you believe the basis of (emperical) science is not true?
Measurement/observations that are not dependent on the observer (i.e., are objective), that appears the same no matter who observes it, give us true information about "reality".

[dime]

Why does it matter at all if there's some imaginary reality where that axiom won't hold?
It works in our reality where we all live in.
Following that axiom, is it reality what someone on psychedelic drugs experiences? No.

[Kasper]

Following that axiom, is it reality what someone on psychedelic drugs experiences? No.

I don't understand this sentence

[panacea]

Many people enjoy hallucinogens responsibly. I know of many more people that have done these drugs and did not go insane or hurt themselves than I do of people who got hurt. Most hallucinogens are not very toxic at all (in the amounts one usually take), and both personal anecdotes and research shows that they can create meaningfull and even spiritual experiences in people, and have a positive impact on their lives. To blow these experiences off because they are "chemically induced" is silly, in my opinion. In the end, all our expereinces are chemically induced

Many people enjoying hallucinogens responsibly is a baseless statement. First of all, you don't know enough of the worlds population to know this, even if it happens directly around you or in your local culture. No average joe does, that's why there's studies and such to back up these claims, or invalidate them. So bring those to the table rather than speaking for everyone as if you have any idea how people in general use drugs (responsibly or abuse them).

Meanwhile, back in reality, there are countless rehabilitation centers and people in immense suffering, their lives totally destroyed, from drug abuse. But hey, if 9 people are happy from it and 1 gets their life shattered, that makes it a good idea? I don't think so. Research by far shows that hallucinogens cause more problems (either from drug abuse, or being a gateway to drug abuse) than they create 'meaningful experiences', since meaningful experiences are subjective and don't belong in research. For example, one person may have a hallucination about god and that could be spiritually very meaningful for them, while another may hallucinate about something they perceive as evil or a 'nightmare', and yet someone else may find the nightmare a thrill and someone else may find the god experience an intrusion and violation of their mind. Bottom line is that just because something could have a positive impact on someones life doesn't make it a good idea, because you conveniently are ignoring the possibility that it could destroy their life.

I can't believe how narrowminded you are being about the 'all our experiences are chemically induced' argument. The chemically-induced experiences we are normally having are from natural substances and reactions in our body in response to our environment and nutrition - if you introduce something whose purpose is to make you hallucinate, then your brain goes into a perspective of reality which is less useful to function, otherwise hallucinogens would be used for something in nature (naturally) than things like snake venom to make its prey go crazy and kill or injure themselves (yes that is an actual snake venom's effect).

[fictor]

But I don't have any depression, headaches, PTSD, etc, why would I take any of these drugs then?

I am not saying you should. I am saying psychedelic drugs do have medical properties and deserves more research.

There must be some good reason that these hallucinogenic drugs are illegal, just like serious drugs for treating various diseases are illegal without a doctor's prescription.

There is a big difference between illegal and regulated. Of course I think psychedelics should be regulated, but I dont think they should be illegal (and thus un-regulated, meaning you can buy them anywhere, at any time, with no prescription).

Many people enjoying hallucinogens responsibly is a baseless statement. First of all, you don't know enough of the worlds population to know this, even if it happens directly around you or in your local culture. No average joe does, that's why there's studies and such to back up these claims, or invalidate them. So bring those to the table rather than speaking for everyone as if you have any idea how people in general use drugs (responsibly or abuse them).

It is not a baseless statement. If you look at statistics for use of psychedelic drugs, there are not very many people using them, compared to other types of drugs. So no average joe actually use psychedelics at all. The reason for this might very well be found in the nature of the substances. Psychedelics is a curiousity in the drug world, for those with spescial interests, because of their effect. It does not give the intense euphoric, sedative and analgesic effects of opiates, and does not give the euphoria and energy boost of stimulants like cocain or amphetamins. It is a poor tool for escaping yourself and your world, beacause if you are in a very bad place, psysically and/or emotionally, the chances of having a bad trip are increased. Psychedelics (not including cannabis) are mostly used by a margin of the drug consuming community, and therefore what happens "directly around me" might actually give a pretty good description of what is going on at a larger scale. Especially if you count in that there are large online communities for users of psychadelics, so my "local culture" is suddenly pretty global.

Secondly, even if people are TRYING to hurt themselves by taking psychedelics, they would have a hard time, because:
-Psychedelics are generally not very toxic, and one can not die from an overdose (unless you do so intentionally, by taking say 10 or more doses at once, depending on the substance)
-Psychedelics are not addictive (except Ketamine, which is really a dissosiative)
-The tolerance go up quickly, so you simply can not use it every day

Meanwhile, back in reality, there are countless rehabilitation centers and people in immense suffering, their lives totally destroyed, from drug abuse.

None of these people are in rehab because of psychedelics, as they are not addictive. Many of the poor people who ends up in rehab have never even tried psychedelics (again, excluding cannabis). Psychedelics (as in LSD, mescaline, psylocybine etc.) are not generally considered "gateway drugs" either, even by those who still holds on to the gateway theory. Even if it was, it would be because of the law, not the substances themselves (there are no reason why taking one drug would automatically make you wish to take another).

Research by far shows that hallucinogens cause more problems (either from drug abuse, or being a gateway to drug abuse) than they create 'meaningful experiences', since meaningful experiences are subjective and don't belong in research.

If subjective experiences does not belong in research, then what are these "problems" you say show up in the research on psychedelics?

But hey, if 9 people are happy from it and 1 gets their life shattered, that makes it a good idea? I don't think so.

Following this logic, we should ban every medicine and vaccine, asap. All drugs have side effects. Research on these drugs shows us if the benefits outweighs the riks.

I can't believe how narrowminded you are being about the 'all our experiences are chemically induced' argument. The chemically-induced experiences we are normally having are from natural substances and reactions in our body in response to our environment and nutrition - if you introduce something whose purpose is to make you hallucinate, then your brain goes into a perspective of reality which is less useful to function, otherwise hallucinogens would be used for something in nature (naturally) than things like snake venom to make its prey go crazy and kill or injure themselves (yes that is an actual snake venom's effect).

First of all; we DO hallucinate. Every night, in your dreams, you basically have a psychedelic experience. Powerfull psychedelic drugs like DMT are naturally produced in your body, its functions not yet fully nderstood (which is why I say we need to research these substances more)

Secondly, I aggree with you fully that a state of mind that makes you run around and injure yourself is not a favorable one. But, what substance first comes to mind when we think of such a state? Any takers? ALCHOHOL! Not the psychedelics. The stories of people on acid jumping of houses are debunked, and most psychedelic trips do not end in injury to the user. Of course, if the effect of psychedelics did not pass, or lasted a very, very long time, like 5 years, it would be a different story. But I, or any person in its right mind, would never advice to take such a substance, nor see a strong need for researching it as a medicinal drug.