T-4-4?

[Aytundra]

I came across this question:
T-4-4

Is the answer...?
A) T - 0 = T or B) T - 8

Post your answers (wants to especially hear from mathematicians on this forum)!

[Novidez]

B) T - 8.
Let's suppose if T = 0, it would be like:
0 - 4 - 4 = - 4 - 4 = - 8

For answer A), it had to be this way:

T + 4 - 4 or T - 4 + 4

I hope I explain it clearly

[Aytundra]

For answer A), it had to be this way:
T + 4 - 4 or T - 4 + 4

So you are saying T cannot be 0, or T equal-not 0.
Because the equation will have to change to T '+' 4 - 4 or T - 4 '+' 4, which the original question did not include any positive signs.

If T cannot be 0,
Then,

B) T - 8.
Let's suppose if T = 0, it would be like:
0 - 4 - 4 = - 4 - 4 = - 8

cannot be held true either, as we just assumed a '0' from answer A).

What is T ?
Is T = 0 or T = 8?

[Novidez]

So you are saying T cannot be 0, or T equal-not 0.

Where did I say that?

Because the equation will have to change to T '+' 4 - 4 or T - 4 '+' 4, which the original question did not include any positive signs.

I was simply creating a new operation for the answer B) to be possible...

What is T ?
Is T = 0 or T = 8?

I mean, reading what you ask initially, T seems just a variable. So T can be any number you want (in your question).

Regarding that, what I did was replacing T with 0. But this was just an example. Here's some more:

If T = 1 , 1 - 4 - 4 = - 7
If T = 2 , 2 - 4 - 4 = - 6
If T = 1000 , 1000 - 4 - 4 = 992
If T = - 1 , - 1 - 4 - 4 = - 9
(...)
If T = T , T - 4 - 4 = T - 8

[Aytundra]

Exactly,

T seems just a variable. So T can be any number you want

But we still have a problem...

If T = 1, 1 - 4 - 4 = -7

If Bookshelf = 1 book, Bookshelf with 1 book - 4 books - 4 books = 0 books

If T = 2, 2 - 4 - 4 = -6

If Bookshelf = 2 books, Bookshelf with 2 books - 4 books - 4 books = 0 books

If T = 1000, 1000 - 4 - 4 = 992

If Bookshelf = 1000 books, Bookshelf with 1000 books - 4 books - 4 books = 992 books

If T = - 1, -1 - 4 - 4 = - 9

If Bookshelf = 1 borrowed book, Bookshelf with 1 borrowed book, 4 borrowed books, 4 borrowed books, = ? books
(...)

If T = T, T - 4 - 4 = T - 8

If Bookshelf = Bookshelf, Bookshelf with 4 borrowed books, and 4 borrowed books = Bookshelf with 8 borrowed books

[Novidez]

I don't understand what are you aiming to, but, if you want to talk about something concrete, palpable on Mathematics (at least from what I've learned. But my knowledge on Maths is pretty basic so maybe I can be wrong xD), then there would have to exist conditions:
If T is a book, then our Domain function would be [0, + infinite[ .

Novidez wrote:
If T = 1, 1 - 4 - 4 = -7

If Bookshelf = 1 book, Bookshelf with 1 book = 0 books
Novidez wrote:
If T = 2, 2 - 4 - 4 = -6

If Bookshelf = 2 books, Bookshelf with 2 books - 4 books - 4 books = 0 books

So, you can't simply pick up my results and compare them for your specific situation. What you write there doesn't make sense because you can't possible subtract negative books or books that you never had. Unless you are thinking like money and that you are owing books, dunno.

If T = T, T - 4 - 4 = T - 8

If Bookshelf = Bookshelf, Bookshelf with 4 borrowed books, and 4 borrowed books = Bookshelf with 8 borrowed books

Following step by step your thoughts, you are not making sense:
I mean, if

> "1 - 4 - 4 = Bookshelf with 1 book - 4 books - 4 books"
> "2 - 4 - 4 = Bookshelf with 2 books - 4 books - 4 books"

wouldn't this last one be something like T - 4 - 4 = Bookshelf with Bookshelf with 4 borrowed books, and 4 borrowed books? Even this doesn't make really sense. The thing is that you omitted the variable T on this last equation.

And why on the first equations - 4 = - 4 books , and on the next ones - 4 = - 4 borrowed books. What's the criteria for that?

[Aytundra]

Does T represent bookshelf or book(s)?
It is a really really really important question to ask.

Novidez generated 5 situations:
For the first 3 situations you defined T with a specific variable, and a real number (i.e. 1 real book, 2 real books, 1000 real books...).
T = 1
T = 2
T = 1000
For the fourth situation you defined T in the negative realm, hence T is no longer a real object (like a solid-physical-real-book-with-coffee-stained-pages); {instead I had to trash the idea that there are real books, and replace it with the idea of book-movements.}.
T = -1
For the fifth situation you kept T as T without a specific variable, hence T can be anywhere between negative-infinity-to-positive-infinity, we don't know; {Because T can be in the negative realm as you illustrated, I had to keep the idea of book-movements, as that can have a negative realm.}
T = T

Now, Novidez, what is T suppose to be in your perspective currently?

[Novidez]

As I said, regarding your first question, T could be any number (notice that I didn't say objects). So, positive, negative, infinite numbers would be all possible.
However, the moment you start talking about books, my 5 situations can't be applied the same way.

Now, Novidez, what is T suppose to be in your perspective currently?

I don't know what is T, I am just following your thoughts. You wrote

If T = 1, 1 - 4 - 4 <=> If Bookshelf = 1 book, Bookshelf with 1 book - 4 books - 4 books

It seems T is a Bookshelf from what you have written here.

But being even stricter, the way you should have written this would be something like:

T = 1, 1 - 4 - 4
<=> Bookshelf = 1 book, 1 book - 4 books - 4 books

Bookshelf with 1 book

it something that you have created and I don't understand why.

Or you can also do this other way:

If 1 book equals to Bookshelf, then

T = 1, 1 - 4 - 4
<=> Bookshelf = 1 book, 1 Bookshelf - 4 Bookshelfs - 4 Bookshelfs

---\\---

However, I still don't know how did you conclude this "Bookshelf = 2 books, Bookshelf with 2 books - 4 books - 4 books = 0 books" from this T = 2, 2 - 4 - 4 = -6

I think you are putting 2 variables - bookshelf and books - and mixing them together.

[Aytundra]

However, I still don't know how did you conclude this
"Bookshelf = 2 books, Bookshelf with 2 books - 4 books - 4 books = 0 books"
from this T = 2, 2 - 4 - 4 = -6
I think you are putting 2 variables - bookshelf and books - and mixing them together.

The bookshelf has 2 books on the shelf.
When the library opens 4 students walk in and each wants to borrow a book,
Later the library opens after lunch, another 4 students walk in and each wants to borrow a book.
The bookshelf has 0 books left.

[Aytundra]

What is T now Novidez?
In T-4-4?
Why are you confused Novidez?
Are you still confused Novidez?

[Aytundra]

This is the answer to the question:
P - A - B = C

Using the picture or schematic of P as a whole part, when we subtract A and B, part C remains.
|---------P------------...|
|--A--|--B--|----C---...|

The question never specified how long/much part P is.
Part P can be short/little:
|--P--|
|--A--|--B--|----C---...|

Part P can be long/much:
|----------------------------------------P-----------------------|
|--A--|--B--|----C---...|

Part P can be just as you thought: P = 1000 , P - 4 - 4 = 992 , C = 992
|----------------------------------------P-----------------------|
|--A--|--B--|----C------------------------------------------...|

Part P can contain an answer of not only part C, but part D when we discover something new about P.
|----------------------------------------P-----------------------|
|--A--|--B--|----C--------|----D---------------------------...|

Part P can contain an unknown part?
|----------------------------------------P-----------------------|
|--A--|--B--|----C--------|----D----...|----?--------------...|

Part P can contain parts that we do not know the exact length of but a good estimate from our thinking "C..., D..., E...".
|----------------------------------------P-----------------------|
|--A--|--B--|----C-----...|----D----...|----E-------------...|

Part P can also contain mistakes from our thought classifications "D is much shorter than what we previously thought.
|----------------------------------------P-----------------------|
|--A--|--B--|----C-----...|--D--|----E--------------------...|
Part P can also be short compared to what we think we can add to Part P: ZA, ZB
|----------------------------------------P-----------------------|
|--A--|--B--|----C-----...|--D--|----E--------------------...|----ZA----|---ZB----|

At least in the Real Physical Realm with Matter, we have good estimates and imaginations on what part P is, we imagine A, B, C, D, E.
|--A--|--B--|----C-----...|--D--|----E--------------------...|

If we let part P = Your Body, and A, B, C, D, E...etc, represent what we think are part of your body, you get something like this:
|----------------Your idea of your Body--------------------...|
|-Ca-|--Zn--|----Carb----...|--Se--|---Protein----------...|--Junkfoods---|

There are many suggestions out there on books and websites that will change your perception of Part P and Part A,B,C,D,E...etc.
You have to find your Part P.
Not the common 1900's and 2000's average of humans RDA-Part-P or RDA-Part-A,B,C,D,E.
Not the commercial's and product's and pharmaceutical's perception of Part P or Part-A,B,C,D,E.

There will be many things that can persuade you to the wrong views...: T equals C, haha, look it is the wrong perception:
T - 4 - 4 = T
P - A - B = C
|-----P------------------...|
|--A--|--B--|-----P------------------...|
and then you will add or subtract A, B (supplements and junk, ZA,ZB) needlessly to displace yourself back to a P when it was really a C that the products got you to manipulate.
|--ZA--|--ZB--|-----P------------------...|

Sometimes P is so big that removing A and B is insignificant, especially if they are junk:
|-----P-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------...|
|--Margarine--|--GrilledBurger--|-----C-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------...|

But you have to be careful that you do not need A or B.
|-----P-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------...|
|--A--|--B--|-----C-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------...|
|--Ca--|--Zn--|-------C------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------...|

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, young children may make the mistake to ignore the orders of operation and add or subtract numbers in a equation out of context:
T - 4 - 4
T - 0
T = T
and then come to the wrong conclusion.

and it is futile to change the equation to suit the imagination:
T - 4 + 4 <---{hehe, Novi, nice invention}
T - 0
as, that is just cheating, you still have to obey reading the equation left to right and BEDMAS-(brackets,exponents,division,multiplication,addition, subtraction).
----------------------------------
The equation "T-4-4" and schematic representation in "P - A - B = C" was taken from this article:
Schmottau Jean (2005). The Development of Algebraic Thinking - A Vygotskian Perspective. Binghamton NY USA. ZDM 2005 Vol. 37 (1) p. 20. Retrieved from: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail. ... OJXcb2.pdf

[Aytundra]

From another thread:

Damn Aytundra, you're a much better (but way much better) researcher than me. I have to be honest with you, since I don't have your knowledge, knowing that you were reading some of his articles too made me quiet happy. Because it really helps me understanding more what he says and, of course, then, I become less confused. So, I just have to thank you

I am not a researcher.
I am not much more knowledgeable than you.
I just read very very very meanly...Muhahahaha . {Beware writers' aytundra is like a cat with claws.}

The thing is that there is always a Part-P or a Total Part-ABCDE...etc.
I enjoy reading articles and tearing them apart {i mean politely critiquing authors}, sentences are the same as equations, sometimes writers are unintentionally-poor/lazily-bad/intentionally-persuading/intentionally-omitting-writers.
And that can cause chaos to the readers.

They can tunnel vision/persuade you to seeing either an answer T as A) T - 0 or B) T - 8, when in reality the letter T is mis-used to represent 2 or more variables like Part-P & Part-C. These can cause confusion. Also a way to open pointless debates, like in that math article, they had grade 1 students debate whether T was 0 or 8 for like a day, before the next day the teacher gave them the answer. When you offer people a choice, they usually never think there is an option C) or D).

An example is: "Do you want chocolate icecream or vanilla icecream for free?", rarely would someone say "I don't like either flavour", "I want strawberry icecream", and then even more rare, "uhm, I don't eat icecream".

It gets worst when media wants you to think i.e. fat is good and fat is bad, without giving the full accurate scientific story; such that people especially with little knowledge in reasoning (i.e. teens) can be trapped with incorrect schema's or idea's of food.

It is very important to teach people to analyze the information they receive.
---

Please ask questions! More than happy to help you read.

[Oscar]

T-4-4 doesn't seem a question...

[Aytundra]

Good you can see it too.
Many myths posed as real problems are trivial and are not real questions.