rrm: BHA? original diet? fat & insulin? low carb diet?

[van]

Hi again, fist if you don't mind, what do you think of supplementing with Betain Hydrocloric acid, for the premise that as we age our stomach acids decline and hence our ability to efficiently handle dense proteins. Second, I'm curious, do you believe the proposed wai diet is our 'original' diet? And if so, how did 'they' find and mix fat with every little consumption of fruit? I'm curious. And third, I've mentioned once before that I came to this diet, aside from having eaten most all raw diets at least once, excluding Wai's, from the diet suggestions of Dr. Doug Graham who for twenty years or longer has strongly promoted that it's not the sugar in fruit that is the problem, but the fat that raw vegans primarily mix with their fruit consumption. He claims that the ingested combined fat 'coates' the insulin cells and causes sugar imbalances due to making the delivery and use of insulin difficult because of this fat 'coating' in the blood stream. I'm sure I'm not getting it exactly right here, but probably good enough to at least comment on. He includes that the sugars can not get in or out of the needed cells in a timely manner and hence coniditions will exist like candida and diabetes. Also that in nature we never see animals combining sugars and fats. My latest understanding is that chimps for instance eat fruit in the morning, and leaves in the afternoon, and don't have a reliable source of fat excluding the insects and small animals eaten. So how exactly does eating fat with fruit reduce blood sugar levels or insulin repsonses? Wouldn't eating just a peice of whole fruit with all the included fiber every hour of so accomplish the same thing without having to include fat with say orange juice. Seeing that orange juice will have a mich higher glycemic response than a whole orange. And then finally, I love for you to comment, if you have the time or interest, on low carb diets, such as quoted for the Inuits or American Plains Indians who ate very little or no fruit at all. Which 'early' peoples did eat a high fruit diet? For all the indigineous peoples sited that I've read about living near the equator eat a high protein- fat diet from small hunted animals, supplemented with some plants and fruits. I know I have rambled a bit here, but my guess is that others here may share similar curiousities. Thanks RRM, Van

[RRM]

what do you think of supplementing with Betain Hydrocloric acid

Supplemention that is aimed at aiding something our body produces, causes a decrease in that production, via negative feedback, creating dependence.

do you believe the proposed wai diet is our 'original' diet?

Lots of fruits and raw animal food?" Yes.

And if so, how did 'they' find and mix fat with every little consumption of fruit?

With only fruits and animal food and without sugar and oil you can perfectly do this diet. Of course oil and sugar are not part of our original diet. We just use them to make this diet easier. With oil its simply easier to keep your blood sugar level stable. With sugar its easier to obtain the energy you need when your energy requirements are very high.

Dr. Doug Graham ... promoted that it's not the sugar in fruit that is the problem, but the fat that raw vegans primarily mix with their fruit consumption.

What problem?

He claims that the ingested combined fat 'coates' the insulin cells and causes sugar imbalances

So, that fat would not stabilize the blood sugar level, but actually would have the opposite effect?
It doesnt feel that way.
I never heard of any of the dieters that fat has this effect.
Do you experience this?

He includes that the sugars can not get in or out of the needed cells

We always hear that this diet has an energizing effect.
I never heard from someone that it had a lethargic effect.

Also that in nature we never see animals combining sugars and fats.

In nature, fat is a luxury.
However, seeds and nuts contain both fats and protein, and most of dietary protein is converted into sugar-like molecules. Protein stimulates insulin secretion even more than glucose does...

how exactly does eating fat with fruit reduce blood sugar levels or insulin repsonses?

Sugars and fats are our energy suppliers (redundant protein is converted into both).
If you consume both, you get energy from both.
If you consume only sugars, more energy needs to come from those sugars, and sugars stimulate insulin secretion more than fat does. Fats are sugar-sparing.
Also, fats and sugars are complementary in the sense that fats are a slow source of energy whereas sugars are a fast source of energy.

Wouldn't eating just a peice of whole fruit with all the included fiber every hour of so accomplish the same thing without having to include fat with say orange juice.

The more fiber, the more bacterial decomposition, the more gasses.
Fats are more effective and dont cause bacterial decomposition.
Also, the easy to digest sugars from the hourly consumed fruit will cause a bigger spike in insulin than when you ingest energy more frequently.

Seeing that orange juice will have a mich higher glycemic response than a whole orange.

If you consume it only once an hour, yes, but that is exactly what we do not advice.

... Inuits or American Plains Indians who ate very little or no fruit at all. Which 'early' peoples did eat a high fruit diet? For all the indigineous peoples sited that I've read about living near the equator eat a high protein- fat diet from small hunted animals, supplemented with some plants and fruits.

The original early people was Homo erectus in Africa.
African Homo erectus was tall, and didnt live inside the big forrests but on the savannas near the forrests and rivers, where plenty fruits where available.
From there people migrated to other areas, less rich in fruits, meaning less ideal for people. The indigineous peoples you refer to are all small.

my guess is that others here may share similar curiousities.

Your curiosity doesnt require validation; I also gladly respond if its just you.

[van]

RRM

Thanks for your guidance again. Let me ask further. Could not the same reasoning for not taking a supplement that would cause the body dependance because of decreasing it's own production be said of eating chloresterols in eggs? Let me say though, I do share your hypothesis as it regards to BHA. What I notice when it comes to whether of not this diet causes lethargy or not, has to do with how my body feels towards the end of the day with just fruits and fat. As an amputee, my aritificial leg has been my barometer to tell me how my body reacts to foods. For at the end of the day, sometimes earlier, no matter how often or much fruit and fat I eat my leg will be loose. Not until I eat a denser protein does it resume it's original fuller shape, hence tighten up. I attribute this muscle tone. Or that the ingestion of too many sugars has upset my internal balance at the celluar level or hormonal as descibed by 'others'. The effect of eating proteins is intantaneous almost. Very interesting. Also, I tend to relax alot more. Hard to quantify here for you. Maybe you have the same experience with increassed emotional stability as related to eating proteinous foods.
How often are you suggesting eating whole fruits with fat. For I have read you sip juice every twenty minutes or so. And if one were wanting to experiment in eating fruits without fat, how freguent might that look like. And of course, have you tried that and been successful?
Where can I read about your sited homo erectus? And what do you speculate their eating patterns throughout the day to be. Obviously they led a much more active life style than any of us. Dr. Doug Graham, as mentioned before, would often say exercise to 'earn' your next meal, and is a fitness coach. One of the reasons he can sit down and eat twenty bananas and advocate it also, is probably due to his high erercise regime.
The 'problem' I was referring to earlier as sited from Dr. Graham was his describing that fruit or the sugar in fruit isn't the 'problem' as descibed in Diabetes or Candida but when added fat is included. He claims this is the major down fall for raw vegans in that so many have diets where the fat content is around 60-70% as compared to the 10 % level he promotes. I imagine it's also because of lack of other essential nutrients and that avocados are the mainstay fat eaten in combination with sugary fruits.
thanking you now for your comments, Van

[RRM]

Could not the same reasoning for not taking a supplement that would cause the body dependance because of decreasing it's own production be said of eating chloresterols in eggs?

No, as for cholesterol (and many vitamins, such as B2, B3, B5 etc), the body is designed for reacting upon the influx of cholesterol from diet, whereas this is not the case for digestive enzymes etc. In the primer case, the feedback system adjusts production and absorption rates in accordance with presence of cholesterol / vitamins. In the latter case, the body 'thinks' the feedback system needs adjustment as the production and presence of that enzyme dont match.

As an amputee, my aritificial leg has been my barometer to tell me how my body reacts to foods. For at the end of the day, sometimes earlier, no matter how often or much fruit and fat I eat my leg will be loose. Not until I eat a denser protein does it resume it's original fuller shape, hence tighten up. I attribute this muscle tone.

Its probably all about water retention.
Your face may be more swollen in the morning, and will be so less and less as the day passes by. the same is true for the rest of your body.
By consuming protein, protein levels can increase up to 9-fold, and proteins are hydrophylic, so that you will start retaining more water again, which you interpret as muscle tone.

if one were wanting to experiment in eating fruits without fat, how freguent might that look like.

Thats impossible to tell, as it depends on how big your bites are, and what your energy requirements are. Just listen to your body; try to feel its energy requirements (not that difficult, actually).

And of course, have you tried that and been successful?

Yes, when im off for a few days in a row (very rare though), I love to make big bowls of very ripe fruits (mango, banana, peach, melon, raisins), and (really) constantly keep eating from that.
Unfortunately, I hardly ever have the time to do so...

Where can I read about your sited homo erectus?

Read what exactly?

what do you speculate their eating patterns throughout the day to be.

I think they were constantly gathering foods, and constantly eating them while gathering.

Obviously they led a much more active life style than any of us.

Yes, and I think that they were eating and looking for food almost all day.

sugar in fruit isn't the 'problem' as descibed in Diabetes or Candida but when added fat is included.

Does he even know that carnivores obtain all their sugars from protein?
If we would take his hypothesis seriously, we would have to eat every energy-nutrient separately, which is impossible. (no fat with protein, no fat with sugars and no sugars with protein either, as part of the protein is converted into fat)