My progress so far
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RRM
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Re: Mycosis
That's not correct. Let's compare 100gr of wild salmon vs farmed:fred wrote:Because farmed fish, even organic, are far inferior to wild fish, in terms of nutrients density and taste. It's the same thing between farmed cattle vs game. No comparison!
wild:
energy: 142kcal
total fat: 6.34gr
protein: 19.84gr
omega3
LNA: 0.30gr
EPA: 0.32gr
DPA: 0.28gr
DHA: 1.12gr
cholesterol: 55mg
farmed:
energy: 202kcal
total fat: 13.60gr
protein: 19.89gr
omega3
LNA: 0.55gr
EPA: 0.71gr
DPA: 0.44gr
DHA: 2.15gr
cholesterol: 43.50mg
Vitamin and mineral content are about the same. When looking at the important data, the omega3 fatty acids content, we see that farmed salmon contains more of it than wild salmon.
Wild salmon is, where I live, mostly frozen. This makes the taste usually quite watery. I'm sure it tastes much better when fresh, but given the choice between frozen wild salmon and fresh (or frozen) farmed salmon, I choose the latter.
Re: Mycosis
Do you really really believe that you can reduce a salmon to these few nutrients ?
Do you believe that the food an animal eat and the life that he lives has no consequences on his health and thus on the quality of his flesh ?
Do you believe that our taste bud can't appreciate the quality of a food ?
Do you believe that the food an animal eat and the life that he lives has no consequences on his health and thus on the quality of his flesh ?
Do you believe that our taste bud can't appreciate the quality of a food ?
Re: Mycosis
Thats what you originally stated: "inferior regarding nutrient density",fred wrote:Do you really really believe that you can reduce a salmon to these few nutrients ?Oscar wrote:Vitamin and mineral content are about the same. ... omega3 fatty acids content, we see that farmed salmon contains more of it than wild salmonfred wrote:farmed fish, even organic, are far inferior to wild fish, in terms of nutrients density and taste
so that is what Oscar responded to.
What other nutrients do you mean specifically?
On his health?fred wrote:Do you believe that the food an animal eat and the life that he lives has no consequences on his health and thus on the quality of his flesh ?
For sure.
On the texture/quality of its flesh?
For sure.
fred wrote:Do you believe that our taste bud can't appreciate the quality of a food ?
Ehrr, sure we can. Certainly on this diet!Oscar was just saying this:
Oscar wrote:given the choice between frozen wild salmon and fresh (or frozen) farmed salmon, I choose the latter.
Re: Mycosis
Looking at a list of some known nutrients to compare food is very reductionist IMO. Not only do we often discover new nutrients, but life is much more than an addition of some components.RRM wrote: Thats what you originally stated: "inferior regarding nutrient density",
so that is what Oscar responded to.
What other nutrients do you mean specifically?
So we agree that the flesh of a free healthy animal living a normal life in his original environment, eating the wild food he find,etc. is far superior than the flesh of an artificially fed farmed animal.On his health?
For sure.
On the texture/quality of its flesh?
For sure.
The taste of wild animal products is often stronger that of farmed animals. This suggests that there is something more in the wild animal...
Oscar was just saying this:Oscar wrote:given the choice between frozen wild salmon and fresh (or frozen) farmed salmon, I choose the latter.
For example, I can eat dozens of farmed oysters, but i am satisfied with a few wild oysters.
I don't know if this is helpful, but I found the following sources that say farmed salmon have fewer omega-3s than wild, and higher levels of omega-6s (the given ratios of omega-3's to 6 are 15:1 for wild, 3: 1 for farmed). In short: wild fish are a better source of omega-3s.
(http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=96)
(http://www.puresalmon.org/pdfs/human_health.pdf)
The following (long-winded) article also addresses PCBs, dioxins, antibiotics, dyes, etc. found in farmed fish, which seem pretty scary. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 5812.story)
Still, I have to agree with you Oscar about taste...the place where I get my fish from has fresher and more delicious farmed salmon than wild, so I prefer it.
But fred, I also definitely agree with you that wild and pasture-fed animals and their products taste infinitely better than factory-farmed, grain-fed animals. I have done a lot of experimentation and I have to say (except for my preference in fish) that there is no comparison. Even butter from grass-fed cows tastes so much better to me. (I swear it's not psychological, it's purely based on taste and satisfaction.)
Wild game is of course the most superior, because it is usually fresh. I live in Montana where many people hunt and fish, and I have eaten fish that was speared just minutes earlier. It is a profound, sobering experience to watch the animal die in front of you and then to truly appreciate what it has given you...and the taste is phenomenal.
Because of all this, I just assumed anything farmed would have a much lower nutritional qaulity than wild. This is very interesting!
(http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=96)
(http://www.puresalmon.org/pdfs/human_health.pdf)
The following (long-winded) article also addresses PCBs, dioxins, antibiotics, dyes, etc. found in farmed fish, which seem pretty scary. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 5812.story)
Still, I have to agree with you Oscar about taste...the place where I get my fish from has fresher and more delicious farmed salmon than wild, so I prefer it.
But fred, I also definitely agree with you that wild and pasture-fed animals and their products taste infinitely better than factory-farmed, grain-fed animals. I have done a lot of experimentation and I have to say (except for my preference in fish) that there is no comparison. Even butter from grass-fed cows tastes so much better to me. (I swear it's not psychological, it's purely based on taste and satisfaction.)
Wild game is of course the most superior, because it is usually fresh. I live in Montana where many people hunt and fish, and I have eaten fish that was speared just minutes earlier. It is a profound, sobering experience to watch the animal die in front of you and then to truly appreciate what it has given you...and the taste is phenomenal.
Because of all this, I just assumed anything farmed would have a much lower nutritional qaulity than wild. This is very interesting!
No need to call yourself reductionist, fred...just try to see the bigger picture. 
I don't think we are in disagreement here about the benefits of wild/fresh/organic vs farmed/frozen/non-organic. The one time I tasted fresh mackerel still stands out in my memory.
We would have to do more research about the claims in those articles, and whether the farming conditions hold true for all countries or not. Otherwise we might have to send out RRM as a modern-day Tarzan to catch us all some juicy fish.
I don't think we are in disagreement here about the benefits of wild/fresh/organic vs farmed/frozen/non-organic. The one time I tasted fresh mackerel still stands out in my memory.
We would have to do more research about the claims in those articles, and whether the farming conditions hold true for all countries or not. Otherwise we might have to send out RRM as a modern-day Tarzan to catch us all some juicy fish.
Otherwise we might have to send out RRM as a modern-day Tarzan to catch us all some juicy fish.
Definitely. Last summer, I insisted on going huckleberry-picking during the height of Grizzly bear season, when they were all around. I just wanted those berries SO badly! I guess I was willing to risk my life just to have them (and this was pre-Wai)! They were juicy and perfect.I think we can say the same thing for wild fruits vs cultivated selected fruits. I have the chance where I live to eat some (almost) wild fruits like fresh coconuts, cempedak, jackfruits, rustic bananas, etc. and they always tastes much better and are more nutritious than any commercial fruits...
When a woman craves something, you can't stop her.
It's the same when my neighbor gives me vegetables from his garden: I can sit down with a single cherry tomato and just savor it for like 5, 10 minutes.
I don't know if it's because it's fresh, or made with sunlight and organic soil, or what...
Ha ha, Oscar! Except I look more like a scary monster lady who is totally possessed. With horns.
In fact, I think my need for nutrients is more intense than any craving I could ever have for munch food. With munch food, it's more like a whiny, but gnawing, irritability or anxiousness. It's like I "need" chocolate or salt in a way that--for example, if I'm watching a great film and I'm really into it and the DVD player stops working, I will probably flip out because I "need" to keep watching. It's not a necessity, only a desire built up by habit (or an addiction; what I imagine quitting cigarrettes or coffee would be like, to a lesser extent).
With my nutrition-based craving, it's very different. (Now that I'm eating Wai foods, I can tell.) If I wake up 2 days before my period and there aren't any eggs in the house, I will very matter-of-factly RUN to the store, through a snow storm and possibly still wearing my pajamas. It's more like an instinct that I obey, without pause. And I will fight off grizzly bears to fulfill it.
Even when I shop for fruit, I get into a certain "mode." I feel very much like I'm hunting--I can't even hold a proper conversation with someone (only nod without listening), because I have to study the fruit, smell it, listen to my body's response. I have had entire conversations in the produce section without hearing a word.
And if I spot any fruit that suddenly "calls out" to me, watch out. I will literally run towards it, aggressively elbow anyone who happens to be in front of it (old lady or not), and fill up my basket like it's precious gold or something. Then I will walk away, triumphant (the sweet old lady still saying "ow"). Horrible.
But I would never risk death or elbow old people for munch foods! I think that's the difference.
Of course, it gets confusing, because sometimes we may crave munch foods because of a nutrient that we're lacking. But on this diet that hasn't happened to me yet, and I doubt it will.
Glad I'm not the only one!When I really "need" a specific kind of (Wai) food, I'd do about anything to get it
In fact, I think my need for nutrients is more intense than any craving I could ever have for munch food. With munch food, it's more like a whiny, but gnawing, irritability or anxiousness. It's like I "need" chocolate or salt in a way that--for example, if I'm watching a great film and I'm really into it and the DVD player stops working, I will probably flip out because I "need" to keep watching. It's not a necessity, only a desire built up by habit (or an addiction; what I imagine quitting cigarrettes or coffee would be like, to a lesser extent).
With my nutrition-based craving, it's very different. (Now that I'm eating Wai foods, I can tell.) If I wake up 2 days before my period and there aren't any eggs in the house, I will very matter-of-factly RUN to the store, through a snow storm and possibly still wearing my pajamas. It's more like an instinct that I obey, without pause. And I will fight off grizzly bears to fulfill it.
Even when I shop for fruit, I get into a certain "mode." I feel very much like I'm hunting--I can't even hold a proper conversation with someone (only nod without listening), because I have to study the fruit, smell it, listen to my body's response. I have had entire conversations in the produce section without hearing a word.
And if I spot any fruit that suddenly "calls out" to me, watch out. I will literally run towards it, aggressively elbow anyone who happens to be in front of it (old lady or not), and fill up my basket like it's precious gold or something. Then I will walk away, triumphant (the sweet old lady still saying "ow"). Horrible.
But I would never risk death or elbow old people for munch foods! I think that's the difference.
Of course, it gets confusing, because sometimes we may crave munch foods because of a nutrient that we're lacking. But on this diet that hasn't happened to me yet, and I doubt it will.
