Already taking methionine; whats the next step?

[Rivera]

(EDIT) Split off from another thread (/EDIT)

Bodybuilders often talk too about getting insulin high so it helps in building muscles or something like this. Is it true?

Have you ever had bigger muscles than this?
What kind of exercise program/routine do you use?

No, I never had bigger muscles. But I think it's more about the right proteins amounts I was not getting.
My routine is quite normal and include all old school excercices. No supersets or cardio stuff. Usual number of sets/reps.

Now I'm dieting and even if it's by removing one or two fruits per day, I see I can't do so much sets as before; meaning I'm losing muscles. Just for the time of dieting, as a cheat, I think I'm gonna take some protein shake. Which one would be "best" in this case? Whey, casein, soja? And when taking it?

Which is better: whey protein (or another type of protein) or buying each amino acids in caps (not liquid & heated)?

How on this diet can we keep on building muscles all day long with just fruits at each snacks? Fish being taken only once or twice daily. At the end of the day, we would have all the proteins we need, but it seems so important when getting bigger to keep your blood protein level up throughout the day. So it is really ok?

If I take fish twice a day, it ought to be taken in the morning and evening? Or at lunch & evening is ok too?
Like bodybuilders, do you think we should wake up during the night for eat too?

You said in another topic that fats are important when dieting because if we are getting some, the body may use the one stored or something like this, but any (clean) fat eaten will go directly in adipose tissue right? So it's better to reduce them?

[RRM]

Bodybuilders often talk too about getting insulin high so it helps in building muscles or something like this. Is it true?

Yes. It keeps your body in a metabolic rather than catabolic state.
It keeps glycogen in the muscles and prevents breaking down protein for energy.

My routine is quite normal and include all old school excercices. No supersets or cardio stuff. Usual number of sets/reps.

Okay, but you might try a different routine, because when you use the same routine all the time,
your muscle mass is likely to plateau.
In this situation a different routine may be more effective (temporarily)

Just for the time of dieting, as a cheat, I think I'm gonna take some protein shake. Which one would be "best" in this case? Whey, casein, soja? And when taking it?

They may all have similar disastrous effects, regarding acne.

Which is better: whey protein (or another type of protein) or buying each amino acids in caps (not liquid & heated)?

Protein supplements always contain a lot of protein that is not utilized, simply because of amino acid ratios.
Amino acids are way more effective in that regard, and therefore way less harmful regarding acne,
because total supplementary protein intake will be much, much lower.
Start with 1,000 mg methionine and 500 mg phenylalanine, which will be as effective as 58 grams of whey protein,
but 39 times less harmful regarding acne (as the whey contains that much more redundant amino acids)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1314&start=0

How on this diet can we keep on building muscles all day long with just fruits at each snacks?

Fruits at each snacks?
I dont understand what you are saying here.
Maybe you wanted to say: "just fruits as snacks"?
Fruits contain sugars, which keep up your insulin.

Fish being taken only once or twice daily.

If its enough fish, you can build great muscles.

it seems so important when getting bigger to keep your blood protein level up throughout the day.

No, to keep insulin up.
Sugars take care of that, if you consume it frequently enough.

If I take fish twice a day, it ought to be taken in the morning and evening? Or at lunch & evening is ok too?

Both are ok, but which one is best depends.
In the morning may be too soon if you ate late the night before, for example.

Like bodybuilders, do you think we should wake up during the night for eat too?

Only if you lack energy.
Sometimes, if i forgot to take in some energy before i go to sleep,
i wake up in the middle of the night due to a lack of energy, i then take a few sips,
and fall asleep again.

any (clean) fat eaten will go directly in adipose tissue right?

No, because you use fats 24/7.
The blood fatty acid levels fluctuate, and you need to replenish them.
But, yes, consuming too much fat in one sitting will lead to storage in adipose tissue.

So it's better to reduce them?

You may reduce the intake of fatty meals to smaller sized and more frequent meals,
but make sure to listen to your body, and not to deprive yourself of fats.

[Rivera]

Yes. It keeps your body in a metabolic rather than catabolic state.
It keeps glycogen in the muscles and prevents breaking down protein for energy.

How high they're usually talking about? Too high regarding health?

Protein supplements always contain a lot of protein that is not utilized, simply because of amino acid ratios.
Amino acids are way more effective in that regard, and therefore way less harmful regarding acne,
because total supplementary protein intake will be much, much lower.
Start with 1,000 mg methionine and 500 mg phenylalanine, which will be as effective as 58 grams of whey protein,
but 39 times less harmful regarding acne (as the whey contains that much more redundant amino acids)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1314&start=0

Yes, I am taking these but still I'm losing since I started dieting. That's why I'm thinking of adding whey protein to this. Acne is not a problem.

Fruits at each snacks?
I dont understand what you are saying here.
Maybe you wanted to say: "just fruits as snacks"?
Fruits contain sugars, which keep up your insulin.

I mean fruits do not have much proteins, so eating one fruit many times all day long won't feed muscles constantly.

[RRM]

Yes. It keeps your body in a metabolic rather than catabolic state.
It keeps glycogen in the muscles and prevents breaking down protein for energy.

How high they're usually talking about? Too high regarding health?

Probably not.
Bodybuilders need so much energy, that they have to eat very frequently,
which makes it more likely that its spread out better, compared to 'normal people',
on a normal diet.
Compared to normal people, much of the energy is readily taken up in the muscles (glycogen and protein),
preventing a big and prolonged insulin spike.

Start with 1,000 mg methionine and 500 mg phenylalanine

Yes, I am taking these but still I'm losing since I started dieting.

Then protein is not your problem, but energy.
Every second that your blood sugar is down a bit, muscle tissue is converted into energy.

That's why I'm thinking of adding whey protein to this. Acne is not a problem.

100% whey protein?
(Fresh) whey contains 1% protein and dried whey powder 12% protein,
but im guessing yours is more concentrated than that?
Protein quality of whey protein is only 30%
Protein quality of some foods in comparison:

80% crayfish
72% edible snail
62% chicken egg white
56% horse meat
52% sole (fish)
49% ling (fish)
47% brown shrimp
45% salmon
44% chicken egg yolk

I mean fruits do not have much proteins, so eating one fruit many times all day long won't feed muscles constantly.

It does feed the muscles with energy constantly, also keeping up insulin (not as much as protein and carbs combined, though)

[Rivera]

100% whey protein?
(Fresh) whey contains 1% protein and dried whey powder 12% protein,
but im guessing yours is more concentrated than that?
Protein quality of whey protein is only 30%

I do not know how much concentrated it is, they don't say. But why, instead of buying a whey protein pack, I can't buy many amino acids separately (which you find in the protein pack, like L-Isoleucine, L-Leucine, L-Lysine, L-Threonine ,L-Tryptophan, L-Valineand etc...)and take them at the dose I want. Why don't you propose things like this? When someone wants more than the L-methionine and L-phenylalaline supplements.

[RRM]

But why, instead of buying a whey protein pack, I can't buy many amino acids separately (which you find in the protein pack, like L-Isoleucine, L-Leucine, L-Lysine, L-Threonine ,L-Tryptophan, L-Valineand etc...)and take them at the dose I want. Why don't you propose things like this? When someone wants more than the L-methionine and L-phenylalaline supplements.

Because you already have all those others in your blood;
they are already there, as our diet contains too much of all those other amino acids,
in comparison to methionine/cysteine and phenylalanine/tyrosine.

That is what protein quality is about: the ratios of amino acids.
In food in general, methionine is the most under-represented amino acid,
followed by phenylalanine.
(100 grams) Dried whey powder, for example contains, per 12 grams of protein:

200 mg methionine/cysteine
480 mg phenylalanine/tyrosine
1020 mg threonine
1150 mg lysine
1400 mg leucine
1490 mg aspartic acid
2400 mg glutamic acid
(and more)

Whereas glutamic acid and aspartic acid can also be made inside the body,
simply by using the remainders of other redundant amino acids.
And regarding the other ones, this is what a 80 kg man needs, per day:

384 to 1040 mg methionine
264 to 1120 mg phenylalanine
432 to 560 mg threonine
520 to 960 mg lysine
736 to 1120 mg leucine

So, in order to meet your minimal methionine requirements,
you would need to consume 23,04 grams of whey protein. (192 grams of whey powder)
But this would also supply you with

1958 mg threonine
2208 mg lysine
2688 mg leucine
2861 mg aspartic acid
4608 mg glutamic acid

The last 2 are already redundant, as you can easily make them yourself.
And in order to fulfill your minimal requirements, these are redundant too:

1526 mg threonine
1688 mg lysine
1952 mg leucine

So, why would you want to supplement these?
You already are ingesting way too much of these amino acids!
The only amino acids that are now available only minimally, are methionine and cystein,
so that if you want to use more protein for (re)construction purposes,
you just need to supplement with methionine,
so that after all, you can use some of all that redundant threonine, lysine and leucine as well....
which you already had consumed...

[Rivera]

The only amino acids that are now available only minimally, are methionine and cystein,
so that if you want to use more protein for (re)construction purposes,
you just need to supplement with methionine,
so that after all, you can use some of all that redundant threonine, lysine and leucine as well....
which you already had consumed...

So when already taking Methionine, what supplement someone can take when he is dieting, he can't eat more and he needs more proteins? Protein shakes or taking like 2000mg per day of methionine?

[RRM]

So when already taking Methionine, what supplement someone can take when he is dieting, he can't eat more and he needs more proteins?

Do you mean that this person wants to lose bodyfat? ("...when he is dieting, he can't eat more...")
If he does not want to take in extra energy, and only protein,
he needs to consume very high quality protein (not whey, obviously) because all redundant amino acids are converted into energy.
So, he better consumes a handful of Brazil nuts, or some crayfish or escargots.
(or egg whites or horse meat, but then already 40% of amino acids is redundant).

Protein shakes or taking like 2000mg per day of methionine?

Protein shakes (soy, whey etc) are all low quality protein, meaning that most of the amino acids are
converted into sugars / fatty acids or bodyfat.
If you already consume 1,000 mg methionine plus 500 mg phenylalanine,
then the next step depends on your exact diet, as we have to calculate what the next supplementary amino acids should be.
So, what do you eat exactly?

[Rivera]

Do you mean that this person wants to lose bodyfat? ("...when he is dieting, he can't eat more...")

Yes, losing fat

Protein shakes (soy, whey etc) are all low quality protein, meaning that most of the amino acids are
converted into sugars / fatty acids or bodyfat.

But when listening to you, it feels like the protein shakes, bodybuilders are taking, are almost useless.
Because they are taking a lot so it would really do nothing? And even giving them bodyfat?

If you already consume 1,000 mg methionine plus 500 mg phenylalanine,
then the next step depends on your exact diet, as we have to calculate what the next supplementary amino acids should be.
So, what do you eat exactly?

130 gr of salmon & 1.3 kg of fruits (bananas, strawberries, kiwis & mandarins). You need the exact number fo each fruits? Because it varies often. But banana is the most eaten.

[RRM]

Yes, losing fat

The body burns fat 24/7, so that losing fat is about preventing new bodyfat.
Every time you consume a large meal (as in 3 to 5 meals a day), you are storing new bodyfat after each meal.
With this diet, your meals are so small and frequent, that you only replenish lost blood energy,
and you need to do your best to go beyond that (also replenishing glycogen and storing bodyfat).
So, how many meals a day do you eat?

listening to you, it feels like the protein shakes, bodybuilders are taking, are almost useless.
Because they are taking a lot so it would really do nothing? And even giving them bodyfat?

Well, bodybuilders need a lot of energy, so that they can really use the energy derived from redundant protein.
Consuming so much protein, they will get all the amino acids they need,
plus a big load of energy derived from the redundant amino acids (most of the protein).
When bodybuilders are in their bulking up phase, they gain both muscles and bodyfat, yes.
Right before a competition, they slim down, using diuretics and losing a lot of weight,
including water, bodyfat and also muscle mass.

You need the exact number fo each fruits? Because it varies often. But banana is the most eaten.

Please, for everything.
Make an average; an estimate.

[Rivera]

So, how many meals a day do you eat?

More than 10 meals per day.

Please, for everything.
Make an average; an estimate.

So let's pick up this:
500gr mandarin
1.5kg bananas
130gr salmon

[Rivera]

So, what's the next step?

[RRM]

So, how many meals a day do you eat?

More than 10 meals per day.

You need 2 meals per hour minimum.
A meal includes taking sips of orange or eating a mandarin.
You can consume half the salmon in the morning,
and the other half after exercise, right after having taken the amino acids plus some high sugar food
(preferably juice with sugar) immediately after exercise.

500gr mandarin
1.5kg bananas
130gr salmon

Ok.
The 500 g. mandarin (without peel) contains
45 mg cystine
95 mg isoleucine
90 mg leucine
180 mg lysine
55 mg methionine
125 mg phenylalanine
55 mg threonine
20 mg tryptophan
70 mg tyrosine
130 mg valine

1.5 kg bananas (without peel) contains:
30 mg cystine
570 mg isoleucine
1275 mg leucine
855 mg lysine
135 mg methionine
510 mg phenylalanine
570 mg threonine
270 mg tryptophan
315 mg tyrosine
855 mg valine

130 g salmon contains:
377 mg cystine
1508 mg isoleucine
2301 mg leucine
2626 mg lysine
910 mg methionine
1183 mg phenylalanine
1443 mg threonine
338 mg tryptophan
936 mg tyrosine
1807 mg valine

Including the 1000 mg methionine and 500 mg phenylalanine, in total this yields:
1276 mg cystine / methionine
1769 mg phenylalanine / tyrosine
2173 mg isoleucine
3666 mg leucine
3661 mg lysine
2100 mg methionine
2068 mg threonine
628 mg tryptophan
2792 mg valine

Compared to the recommendations of the WHO/FAO, you are at
(1276/1040) = 123% of recommended levels for a 80 kg man
and on top of that, the following numbers are not utilized:

391 mg phenylalanine / tyrosine
1189 mg isoleucine
2288 mg leucine
2480 mg lysine
1379 mg threonine
283 mg tryptophan
1808 mg valine

So, this means that in your diet methionine / cystine are still the least available amino acids,
and phenylalanine / tyrosine still second least available.
And that means you would have to take extra methionine / cystine,
which is advised against (against taking more than 1000 mg), as it may impair our natural balance.
So, my advice is to consume more salmon or other fish / yolks / meat if your skin can cope with it.

[Rivera]

So, this means that in your diet methionine / cystine are still the least available amino acids,
and phenylalanine / tyrosine still second least available.
And that means you would have to take extra methionine / cystine,
which is advised against (against taking more than 1000 mg), as it may impair our natural balance.
So, my advice is to consume more salmon or other fish / yolks / meat if your skin can cope with it.

But I don't understand something: If I eat more fish, I will get more methionine too, but you just said it's not recommended. So we still have the problem anyway?
And if at that level it already impairs natural balance, I guess the bodybuilders, excuse-me the word, are "fucked", no? lol They take so much more. And what is impaired exactly?

My methionine & phenylalanine are in powder form, so do you think because heat was used, what you recommend does not effect as hoped? Because your recommandations stand for pure liquid amino acids, right? If mine is cooked, I may need more, no?

[RRM]

...that means you would have to take extra methionine / cystine,
which is advised against (against taking more than 1000 mg), as it may impair our natural balance.
So, my advice is to consume more salmon or other fish / yolks / meat if your skin can cope with it.

But I don't understand something: If I eat more fish, I will get more methionine too, but you just said it's not recommended. So we still have the problem anyway?

Its about the balance between methionine and the other amino acids.
If you take supplemental methionine, the relative level of methionine might get too high.
If you take extra fish, all amino acid levels will increase, which is ok.

if at that level it already impairs natural balance, I guess the bodybuilders, excuse-me the word, are "fucked", no? lol They take so much more.

Bodybuilders taking methionine only will either do so because they did the research by themselves,
or because they had medical supervision.
Most bodybuilders take all amino acids; not just methionine.

My methionine & phenylalanine are in powder form, so do you think because heat was used, what you recommend does not effect as hoped?

Its not just about heat.
Free amino acids only remain free in a liquid, acidic environment.
All others are bound to something, which may temporarily result in elevated lymphe-methionine compounds
(as it requires time to uncouple the methionine), which will increase water retention.

Because your recommandations stand for pure liquid amino acids, right? If mine is cooked, I may need more, no?

No, taking more is dangerous.