Wai Warrior - for autophagy - AN EXPERIMENT

[dime]

-Have you not experienced any worsening of your skin during the fasting, from increased blood protein levels due to muscle breakdown, or any other reasons?

This cannot be the case, muscle breakdown due to lack of protein from diet would give you the minimal possible amount of blood protein ever, because the body wants to preserve muscles. So it wouldn't release more protein in the blood than you'd get from diet alone. There must be another reason for your acne, I'd say it's probably the veggetables.

[fictor]

-Have you not experienced any worsening of your skin during the fasting, from increased blood protein levels due to muscle breakdown, or any other reasons?

This cannot be the case, muscle breakdown due to lack of protein from diet would give you the minimal possible amount of blood protein ever, because the body wants to preserve muscles. So it wouldn't release more protein in the blood than you'd get from diet alone. There must be another reason for your acne, I'd say it's probably the veggetables.

That seems logical, dime, but I think I remember RRM or Oscar posting something about skipping meals causing acne through this mechanism. I might be mistaken, though.

I am getting rather keyed up on this, and I think I will try the WW-diet from tomorrow on. My diet would look something like this, I guess, with at least 16 hours of fasting:

-1 liter of OJ with OO, emediatly after working out (some days, when I dont work out until very late in the evening, one meal of whole fruits or avocado a few hours before working out).
-75 grams of egg yolk, mixed with 1-2 mashed bananas and cocnut oil.
-More whole fruits if I feel like I need it (pineaple, apples, banana, mango, dates, figs etc.)

Cool, new project!

[RRM]

Fictor, if you plan on doing WW, could you (if you want, of course) please open a thread in this WW subforum and post your findings and results?
Thank you.

muscle breakdown due to lack of protein from diet would give you the minimal possible amount of blood protein ever, because the body wants to preserve muscles. So it wouldn't release more protein in the blood than you'd get from diet alone.

That seems logical, dime, but I think I remember RRM or Oscar posting something about skipping meals causing acne through this mechanism.

Yes. Muscle breakdown is usually the result of apoptosis and not autophagy.
Autophagy occurs within the cells, and all the resulting chunks of protein / peptides are fully degraded within these cells. Nice and clean.
Apoptosis is much more messy. With apoptosis, the entire cell is broken down, so that big chunks of protein (from cell walls, organelles) are released in the blood stream during that process. These chunks of protein are labelled for degradation and gradually decomposed by proteolytic enzymes in the blood. That's not a clean process. You will have lots of smaller proteins and peptides 'swimming around' in the blood before everything is completely broken down. That's also why the blood protein level can fluctuate so much (up to 900% for specific amino acids); the blood is an enormous pool compared to individual cells. Particularly chunks of proteins / peptides have a tendency to accumulate in the true skin during the day, prior to being transported to the liver through the lymphe vessels during the night.
Its these chunks / peptides that may cause acne, even though blood protein levels may be low.

Im guessing that the longer your are doing WW, the body will increasingly more effectively switch to autophagy during the fasting time window. That's how these things usually work in the body.
Hence maybe the initial weight loss experienced by me and others, followed by weight gain.

[fred]

I am considering giving WW a new test and wonder when is the best time to eat and train.

Going to bed when stomach digestion ends is I believe the best thing to do as the body can focus during sleep on repairing/growing rather than digesting food. This requires to not go to bed right after eating, but to allow enough time for the tomach to empty.

Regarding training, I don't train at the end of the day, so I am considering training in the morning and eating in the afternoon some hours later. Given that GH prevents protein muscle breakdown during fasting : http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/co ... 6.full.pdf and that fasting for 48 hours after a resistance exercice bout does not impede muscle protein synthesis nor does it increase protein muscle breakdown : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9252485, What do you think ?

[doventin]

Hi there. I've been reading about the Wai diet in the last couple of days, and it's absolutely fascinating! I'll definitely give it a try, although probably only after moving out of my parents' house. I just don't want to deal with all the annoying questions and trying to explain why I won't have dinner anymore.

But I do want to reap the benefits of fasting right away, so I'm beginning with a 16h fasting routine. Also I'll have one 'wai meal' a day (0.5 L OJ mixed with 2 egg yolks and some OO, followed by some walnuts and macadamia nuts).

A few questions for RRM (or anyone who can answer):
- Do OJ, OO and fish / meat / egg yolks really contain all the nutrients we need? That would be perfect for me. I'm very lazy (regarding things outside my interests) and never really cared a lot about taste and variety. I mean I do enjoy a delicious meal and I won't eat something I find disgusting, but anything in between is fine by me (like when my mom is worried that she didn't put enough salt in the soup.. yeah, I don't care). Besides, there aren't many things that taste better than orange juice. Although I haven't tried drinking 3L every day yet.
- When I do get to trying out this diet, assuming I would stick to intermittent fasting, will I be able to go straight for the Wai Warrior (starting with a larger eating window of course, like 8 hours)? Or will it be better to start from regular Wai (many meals)?
- Were your messages in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3017 before your learned about autophagy? They seem to contradict the whole idea.
- Might be a silly question, but I couldn't figure it out.. Are you Wai? I saw some old board where there were both the users Wai and RRM.

[djkvan]

Just google Wai Genriiu and Amsterdam waiter and you'll figure thing out pretty quickly.

[RRM]

Going to bed when stomach digestion ends is I believe the best thing to do as the body can focus during sleep on repairing/growing rather than digesting food.

Consuming grains, beans, veggies and stuff like that, you might be right.
But juices and raw animal food are very easy to digest.
And, your digestion system is a specialized system, specialized in digestion, and cannotrepair/ grow muscles and other organs.
Your digestion may take up 30% of your available energy,
but again, Wai foods dont take much energy.
Moreover, your muscles are inactive during sleep,
so really, digesting juices and animal food is no hinder whatsoever regarding (re)construction during the night.
Actually, its makes sure you have plenty of energy available for that, rather than running on empty in the second half of your sleep.

This requires to not go to bed right after eating, but to allow enough time for the tomach to empty.

Your stomach does not need to be empty.
I sleep very well on a full stomach.
(so do most predators)

Regarding training, I don't train at the end of the day

You can change that.

I am considering training in the morning and eating in the afternoon some hours later

For the greatest anabolic effect, you need to have plenty of energy available right after training

Given that GH prevents protein muscle breakdown during fasting : http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/co ... 6.full.pdf

Yes, it does, but only to the extend that it can.
GH frees up energy from stored fat, to prevent protein being used for energy.
It still happens (protein for energy), but it is augmented by elevated GH.
When your fat % hits bottom however, there is much less protection from GH (still stimulating protein synthesis, though).
Fasting makes people skinny, unless compensated for by vigorous exercise and high energy intake after exercise.

fasting for 48 hours after a resistance exercice bout does not impede muscle protein synthesis nor does it increase protein muscle breakdown : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9252485, What do you think ?

Actually, during that 48 hours, muscle breakdown (FBR) was increased, returning to resting levels after 48 hours. (thats normal)
During that 48 hours, muscle synthesis was also increased.
Total muscle synthesis was greater than muscle breakdown.
That is the influence of exercise: it stimulates muscle growth.

Why was synthesis greater than breakdown?
Because there were plenty of nutrients available in their blood and lymphe prior to the exercise.
Hence muscle growth due to the provocation of exercise.

[RRM]

Do OJ, OO and fish / meat / egg yolks really contain all the nutrients we need?

Dont believe me.
Submit a diet of OJ, egg yolks and fish (that gives you enough energy) to the nutrient calculator, and see for yourself.
http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-calcsimple.html

When I do get to trying out this diet, assuming I would stick to intermittent fasting, will I be able to go straight for the Wai Warrior (starting with a larger eating window of course, like 8 hours)? Or will it be better to start from regular Wai (many meals)?

That depends on the execution; on how well you manage to take in enough energy after fasting.
Some people need more time to adapt than others.

Were your messages in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3017 before your learned about autophagy?

Yes, that was in 2012.
I started really reading up on autophagy in 2013.

Are you Wai? I saw some old board where there were both the users Wai and RRM.

There were 2 people starting the Wai sites.
Together they were Wai and both used the RRM suit (on other forums).
Then, on the Wai forum, one started using the Wai suit, and the other (me) the RRM suit.
And later there was only one left: RRM.

[RRM]

I have been on WW one year now.
The last couple of months i have been using 10% less energy (compared to pre-WW), even though i often had to work pretty hard.
Im guessing that i am still using up some energy from (in many years) accumulated damaged organelles. (rather than freshly damaged organelles)
I think this will end soon.
I think that some day, that spare energy (damaged organelles accumulated over many years) will be gone.
I think that as a result, suddenly that energy supply will be there no longer.
And there is no indicator for how much is left.
As in a car that has no indicator for how much fuel is left.
You will only notice when its really gone.
So, i think i may have to be cautious, as at one point i may suddenly start losing weight,
and keep on losing it.

If, and when that happens, there will be less autophagy,
meaning that i will have to decrease the number of hours of fasting.
If not, i will spend more time breaking down muscle tissue, as the source for autophagy has declined.
This cannot be compensated for by increasing energy intake, as that would mostly just result in gaining fat.

[Aytundra]

Whoa that is unexpected. RRM in uncharted water territories.

I have been... The last couple... Im guessing... Im wondering... I think.. someday...suddenly..no longer...there is no indicator...

- First off, that is an awesome piece of writing.
Quite cohesive, and spectacular, something I would call heart speech.
- Second, are you feeling okay RRM?
It does not seem like your style of writing.
- Third it sounds like you are worrying or pondering about mitochondrias and telomeres.
I wish I could tell you what happens next. alas, I have no clue either.
But it seems like you know what you are doing, and have some sort of plan.

On damaged organelles. How do you know you have damaged organelles?
Organelles floats within the cell, I fancy that organelles are quite protected by the cell membrane. Maybe all your organelles are healthy and are in a state of equilibrium, and no need for mitosis.
Damaged organelles would occur at the molecular level. Considering that you have a relatively clean diet. Why would you think your organelles are damaged?

[djkvan]

Apparently many primates often consume their entire day's food intake in a single concentrated one-hour foraging window.

http://phys.org/news/2013-12-in-depth-a ... abits.html

[fred]

Why was synthesis greater than breakdown?
Because there were plenty of nutrients available in their blood and lymphe prior to the exercise.
Hence muscle growth due to the provocation of exercise.

So it means that, in order to build muscles, you don't necessary need to eat right after exercice if you have enough nutrients in the blood/lymphe and stores to fuel the exercice and the repair/growth until the next meal, right ?

Eating right after training stops the production of growth hormone because of the insulin spikes. It also halts the FFA burning. Why not prolong the fast post-workout to benefit from the enhanced GH production ?

http://breakingmuscle.com/nutrition/sci ... -necessary

[RRM]

Thank you, Aytundra.

Second, are you feeling okay RRM? It does not seem like your style of writing.

Ha ha, i always try to find and combine facts, but in this case its all speculation.
The future will tell us.

On damaged organelles. How do you know you have damaged organelles?

We all do.
With every breath we take, oxidative damage happens within our cells.
Its as inevitable as streaming water eroding the hardest rocks.
Thats why cells age, and eventually are replaced.
Oxidation is involved in getting energy from nutrients. Without oxidation, we don't live.
The side effect of oxidation is collateral damage, to cells.
Autophagy is about cleaning up damaged organelles, which postpones having to break down the entire cell.
This prolonges life.

[RRM]

So it means that, in order to build muscles, you don't necessary need to eat right after exercice if you have enough nutrients in the blood/lymphe and stores to fuel the exercice and the repair/growth until the next meal, right ?

Of course, you just need plenty calories.
But Im talking about what is optimal.
For intermittent fasting.
That is not about eating plenty nutrients.
Intermittent fasting is about eating less calories than normally required.
If you do intermittent fasting with a small time window for eating, you need the most optimal schedule.
Second best is not good enough.

Eating right after training stops the production of growth hormone because of the insulin spikes.

It stops the conversion of fatty acids to glucose.
It does not stop the conversion of glucose to glycogen.
It does not stop the uptake of amino acids in cells for (re)construction.
It does not stop muscle growth.
On the contrary.

Why not prolong the fast post-workout to benefit from the enhanced GH production ?

Doing intermittent fasting, you already benefit from the GH getting you through the fasting period.
Prolonging the fasting period is fine. The shorter the eating window, the longer the fasting window, the more GH (to get you through it.)
The question is:
What is the best time to fast?
What is the best time to exercise?
What is the best time to eat?

And i dont mean what fits best in your schedule.
I mean what is the optimal (hypothetical) order / schedule?

http://breakingmuscle.com/nutrition/sci ... -necessary

From that webpage:
"If an athlete is training fasted, then a post-workout meal is critical"

[RRM]

Apparently many primates often consume their entire day's food intake in a single concentrated one-hour foraging window.
http://phys.org/news/2013-12-in-depth-a ... abits.html

Exactly.
And then they rest / sleep.