Italians eat a lot of wheat

[RRM]

Ducky,
Im curious; what do you eat normally?
What is your diet?

[Aytundra]

Thank you Ducky!
Thank you RRM!
I learned a lot from both of you!
Smiles.

What have you learned from me?

(First off, sorry my comments below are a little abstract. That's just how I express myself. Can't help it.)

You have actually taught me a lot, I would dare say the most out of all in the Italians eat a lot of wheat forum, because it brought new understanding to me. statistics I know, RRM merely just framed the picasso.
You have taught me how to ask proper questions.
You have taught me how perspectives can differ.
You have taught me how to read a picasso painting.
It is not simply a child's play. no, it is something deeper that goes on in a picasso
to simply gaze at a picasso painting and think it was child's play, it is not.

[Aytundra]

Explains: In traditional art thinking, "picasso plates" were regarded as childish, hardly worth their gold, it did not have the sophistication of art with depth and perspective and landscape. The brain splatters were pollock paintings. But to recapture the random pollock paints into the child like art work of finger paints, and then to read the beginner's perspective brings out the deeper picasso. - by artistic aytundra & perspective aytundra
(Sorry, these thoughts are a bit dense and educational, I just think too much! What will I do with my crazy brain?)
(Maybe it was the effects of eating wheat in my childhood. lol, My mom use to say to me "someone spilled buckets of paints into your brain.")

[Ducky]

I'm happy that it helped you and thanks for the study you found.

I eat mostly veggies and eggs. Fruits are too much hassle for me personally.

[Aytundra]

I'm happy that it helped you and thanks for the study you found.

Do you eat wheat ducky?

[Ducky]

I'm happy that it helped you and thanks for the study you found.

Do you eat wheat ducky?

No I dont. Ithink the constipation part is true and constipation causing hemorroides makes sense. But it could take a long time.

[Aytundra]

...But it could take a long time.

take a long time for what... to do what...?
Are you talking about: Anti-gliadin antibodies for antibodies in the body to reduce?

[RRM]

I think he is referring to constipation causing hemorroides.
I dont think he is ready to accept any influence of gliadin other than causing constipation.

[Ducky]

And as they analyzed the 90th percentile, they found a significant difference; with a 1.7 odds ratio.
That is really significant.
This difference is even more significant in the 95th percentile.

Its significant for the 11% of the participants not for the whole group. You are misinterpreting the results.

Keep in mind that there are many factors at play regarding developing a psychosis; there is an entire list of possible causes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis#Causes

I keep that in mind, you are the one not keeping that in mind. You are the one giving the impression that gluten is a huge risk.

You are very vague and eluding in your argumentation. Saying its a risk means nothing. What kind of a risk? Big risk, small risk? Not the same.

Only if no other study would ever have noticed any association between wheat-gluten and psychosis.
Remember the meta-analysis?
There are at least 12 scientific studies from which you may conclude there is an association between wheat-gluten and psychosis.
So, this study fits right in.

You mean the 12 scientific studies that you never read and you never bothered to save on your computer? Yes I remember those.

That is certainly not the case.
The study shows that there is a whole range of different levels of response in antibodies.
Every individual is different.

Thats what I am saying and thats what you are completely ignoring. Im the one who pointed that out you never talked about it.

[RRM]

You are misinterpreting the results.

This thread is a monument for misinterpretation of study results.

You are the one giving the impression that gluten is a huge risk.

I actually used the word "significant" many times.
In statistics that does not mean "huge", at all.
It actually means "the extent to which a result is unlikely to be due to chance alone", or simply put: "more than zero".
So, when i said "really significant", i said that the idea that there is an association between psychosis and wheat gliadin is absolutely not just a brain fart.

The study shows that there is a whole range of different levels of response in antibodies.
Every individual is different.

Thats what I am saying and thats what you are completely ignoring.

Ehrr...
So, i said it, and i also ignore it....

Keep in mind that there are many factors at play regarding developing a psychosis

I keep that in mind, you are the one not keeping that in mind.

....
Hmm, maybe its time to close this thread.
We seem to be going down hill.

[Aytundra]

This thread is a painting. You must all interpret or search a little deeper.
Let's keep some etiquette and manners on this thread. Please do not give shallow responses, but constructive responses.

The study shows that there is a whole range of different levels of response in antibodies.
Every individual is different.

What do you think causes psychosis?
a) opioid peptides
b) antibodies
c) both opioid peptides and antibodies
d) ----(write your own thoughts)----

[RRM]

What do you think causes psychosis?

There is a whole list of medical conditions and possible causes that may causes psychosis, including various drugs and other substances that stimulate opioid receptors.
Opioid peptides may directly stimulate opioid receptors in the brain.
Depending on how susceptible those receptors are, and on the scope of the actual stimulus (depending on absorption rate, endopeptidase activity, blood-brain passage etc),
this may eventually lead to a psychosis in some individuals.
Also, or instead, the influence of opioid peptides on the brain may be indirect, via interactions between the immune system and the nervous system.

Also regarding autism there is a whole list of possible causes, and in autism the causal association with opioid peptides may be indirect, via interactions between the immune system and the nervous system in the developmental stage of the brain.
Gliadin antibodies are part of the immune system responding to the absorption of gliadin (from wheat gluten)

Statistics
Finding a statistical correlation between the presence of 'infected' mosquitos and the incidence of malaria is easy.
If there are, however, dozens of possible causes, it becomes very hard to find sound statistic correlations,
simply because there are so many disturbing factors.
Finding a significant statistical correlation between a disease/disorder and one possible cause is therefore truly significant,
as the correlation becomes apparent despite the dozens of (statistically) disturbing factors.
The greater the number of possible causes, the smaller the statistical correlation between just one factor and the disease.
Finding any statistical correlation between psychosis and anti-gliadin is therefore truly significant,
given the very large number of possible (other) causes.

[Aytundra]

It was by chance that mind picked up on picasso within the pollock. (like frenchfries in fish)
Now I am not an artist, but being someone who likes to read a bit of background before she writes.
I happened to bring myself to reading Pablo Picasso's past.
Diptheria caught my eye. The death of Picasso's sister. And it may have well influenced his art and explained the way his artwork. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... er/305715/
But I am more interested in Diptheria. (as it is the origins of vaccines, and the birth of FDA)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphtheria
At the beginnings of creating the diptheria vaccines, there were deaths and reactions.
serum sickness - reactions to antibodies

(Could the development of psychosis be from reaction to antibodies?)

Questions for Karlsson et al.,:
How do you differentiate anti-gliadin IgG and anti-casein IgG?
(but it probably does not matter which IgG, as Lachance, et al., shows there were different antibodies like IgA that picked up on wheat.)

The reason why IgG is important in Karlsson et al's study is that only IgG makes it through the placenta:
"It is the only isotype that has receptors to facilitate passage through the human placenta, thereby providing protection to the fetus in utero." -wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IgG

What probably matters is the volume of antibodies.
Like the "Loss of AGA on GF diet" (see table on wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-gliadin_antibodies

In the longitudinal studies by
Effect of a gluten-free diet on plasma nitric oxide products in coeliac disease. Spencer HL et al., 2004
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... ac+disease.

Which brings the idea to round table, that this diet is probably not predominantly about reducing opioid peptides intake, but about reducing the intake of cooked nitrogenous compounds.

[RRM]

this diet is probably not predominantly about reducing opioid peptides intake, but about reducing the intake of cooked nitrogenous compounds.

and oxysterols, trans fats and other AGEs/ALEs, and anti-nutrients as well.
True, because human milk also contains opioid peptides, and we don't want to eliminate these from our babies' diet...

[jun]

Anyone here expert enough to know if opioid peptides in wheat change favorably for humans in the fermentation/yeast bread making process? So yes this is interesting info found on the wai site...

"Wheat protein also contains very potent opioid peptides (2), sometimes even 100 times more powerful than morphine. (3) Like milk protein, wheat (protein) is used in, or added to many food products as an effective addictive compound.

Adding both milk and wheat protein is even more effective.

By heating wheat and milk proteins, they are becoming even more resistant to being broken down by our digestive enzymes. Such slightly (chemically) altered opioid peptides can be extremely hard to decompose, either due to their unnatural composition, or because they directly inhibit digestive enzyme activity."

But when reading about what water and yeast does to wheat in the bread making process I wonder if the opioid peptides are broken down so they are more easily digestible. If wheat protein is more easily digestible once fermented with opioid peptides transformed to be less or non harmful would there be any reason to exclude it from our diet? wheat having addictive properties? Can sugar be addictive?

"Enzymes catalyze three main reactions in bread-making: breaking starch into maltose, a complex sugar; breaking complex sugars into simple sugars; and breaking protein chains" I found this here:http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/gue ... ake-bread/

To me it seems fermentation makes things like wheat(bread), milk(yogurt,keifir), vegetables(kimchi,pickles) more easy to digest unlocking nutrients in the process. I am not expert enough to know what to be certain of so thats why I ask here. I think the additives commonly used with wheat and milk products like artificial vitamins, oxidized and altered forms of fat, preservatives, food coloring, articial flavors, etc is what tarnishes the image of what could be a fine food to eat.