panacea wrote:while fasting, your body is NOT really in a severe energy deficit, since it is GETTING that energy by taking a adaptation (ketosis) to extract energy from the body. A SEVERE energy deficit means you're in ketosis or not, and still can't get energy. You die within minutes, hours, or days, depending on how severe.
I think i understand why you do not understand.
The above quote illustrates that you think that when fasting, you can only compensate for the deficit in energy through ketosis.
You are saying that the body compensates for the energy deficit through the adaptation called ketosis.
That is it.
No mention of autophagy.
So, you think that fasting evokes ketosis, and essentially nothing else, correct?
That the beneficial effects of fasting are obtained through ketosis.
If that was correct, yes, then you would be right that consuming fat only, one remains in ketosis, and thus this would be an extension of the effects of fasting (=ketosis).
However...
Yes, fasting evokes an increased utilisation of ketone bodies for energy, but also autophagy. And it is now widely accepted that the beneficial aspect evoked by fasting (regarding increased lifespan) is not ketosis, but autophagy. Do you acknowledge this?
If your body can get 0 energy, you die instantaneously. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what an energy deficit is. What you seem to actually mean is an external, food based energy deficit. The cells do not know "oh hey, that energy delivered to me came from food fat, not body fat, let's react differently to this energy and improve this persons health".
No, i do not mean an external, food based energy deficit.
I am referring to the energy deficit that will occur once your direct energy reserves (glycogen in the liver)have been depleted. This will occur only a while after you have have stopped eating and all the energy in your stomach has been taken up.
I am referring to the point that insufficient energy (relative to what is required for normal activity) from the bloodstream is transported to all the cells in our body. That is an energy deficit. That is what evokes the increased utilisation of bodyfat (75% keto, 25% gluco), the turnover of muscle tissue (more gluco than keto), and .... autophagy.
During nutritional ketosis, the SAME bodily adaptation happens. The SAME bodily responses happen, regardless of if the energy comes from body fat or food fat.
Sure. You are right. All about the use of (mostly) ketone bodies for energy.
But that is not what constitutes the beneficial effects of fasting / starvation mode.
The beneficial effects of fasting stem from autophagy.
Ketosis is nothing else than the result of a shift in energy sources, as in a car that can use both petrol and gas, shifting to using relatively more petrol (or gas). One can argue that petrol is better, or gas. As if i am saying that its better to use sugars and you are saying that it is better to use fats. But that is not what is the issue.
Using relatively more ketone bodies for energy is not what makes fasting healthy.
Its autophagy.
RRM,
first of all, a ketogenic diet can be wai or not wai, just as a fruitarian diet can be wai or non wai
since the best version is a raw wai ketogenic diet, why put it in non-wai section?
when fasting, you can only compensate for an energy demand through consuming bodily energy stores, no matter what way you do that. I didn't say through ketosis only. I've been saying the body uses internal body energy stores if it can't get external energy, and that internal energy stores ultimately came from diet. The vast majority of energy will come from body fat even in starvation mode, especially while in ketosis since the body is then even better at using body fat, and if it's not in ketosis while starving, it quickly adapts to be in ketosis, in order to get access to that energy.
The beneficial effect evoked by fasting being only because of autophagy, and not because of ketosis, has never even been studied or shown. No one cares about ketosis, so of course other things like autophagy get the spotlight by process of ignoring everything else. I know this is true simply because by eating a ketogenic diet, it is much harder to eat a lot of the crappy stuff most people were eating before a ketogenic diet, like sodas or fries, which means all of their longevity and health parameters are going to get better with or without autophagy. The same is true for fasting - you remove all of the junk coming in just like a ketogenic diet does in large part. There is no way they have had the brains to test the general population and show that people on a nutritional ketogenic diet, who then start to fast, have even better longevity parameters after fasting. It may be true, but definitely not even indicated by any tests or studies. Without studying or testing for that, what the general consensus is about autophagy being the life extender and not merely cutting out all of the normal crap in a normal humans diet, is not concrete at all. I suspect that it may be true, simply because fasting is like a short-term burst of a ketogenic diet, which later results in undoing all of those effects by having to overeat, but those results only remain true so long as you only look at the fasting period, and not the repletion period along with the fasting period. So in summary, increasing your longevity by fasting for 2 weeks, only to decrease your longevity by overeating for 2 weeks, is not only hard to do regarding willpower to abstain from food, how poorly you'll function those 2 fasting weeks (typically, if not keto adapted beforehand), but is most likely, at best breaking even with a keto-adapted invidiual who stays on a ketogenic diet for 4 more weeks.
Furthermore, authophagy is increased during ketosis, both in starvation ketosis and nutritional ketosis. The only meaningful difference in the starvation ketosis mode vs nutritional ketosis for which types of autophagy are induced is you have less (zero) protein intake during starvation. While this does increase autophagy, you can eat low protein, and many do, on a ketogenic diet especially after you normalize weight. While the fasting approach obviously evokes more autophagy during the fasting period, you have to eat even more protein than a ketogenic diet in order to replenish, during that time autophagy is severely suppressed. If you instead stay on a low protein keto diet for the entire length of a fasting and replenishing period combined, you will have arguably the same effect without having to go through the pain and misery that can come with fasting and overeating to replenish energy stores.
Even more importantly, external protein demand goes down on a ketogenic diet, since your body has less demand for it, and recycles it better, probably, in part, because it's in recycling mode already just like starvation, but minimally less pronounced. Some would say that moderation is a healthy thing, and that going to the extreme of starving yourself to increase longevity is only a good path if you are ignorant to what a longevity diet without starvation would consist of (low protein, or cyclic low protein, nutritional ketogenic diet, and similarly, just a normal ketogenic diet with moderate protein, since high protein is never advocated).
There is a myth that a ketogenic diet is a high protein diet, because in the initial stages, most people are overweight by a little or a lot, so they only need to eat mostly just protein and a little fat, since they get the majority of their fat energy from internal body fat stores. Over time, their protein intake reduces and fat intake increases until it eventually stabilizes for their normal weight.
By eating just fat on a nutritional ketogenic diet, which is what you do for most of the time period on a ketogenic diet anyway, it is damn easy to "deplete glycogen stores in the liver", while still eating as much fat as you like. So no, internal starvation mode is not dependent on fasting. Also, while both fasting and on a ketogenic diet, guess what, the liver breaks down fat and/or protein sources to form glucose, regardless of whether or not it is then stored in the liver, or just created on demand, makes no difference in to what the cells feel. Again, starvation is just "super ketosis" and nutritional ketogenic diets are "moderate ketosis", starvation is "super autophagy" and nutritional ketogenic diets are "moderate autophagy", nutritional ketogenic diets with cyclic protein intake is cyclic "super autophagy" and cyclic "moderate autophagy", and the replenishing state for fasting is "suppressed autophagy" and the replenishing state for cyclic nutritional ketogenic diets is "moderate autophagy" and "suppressed autophagy".
But any way you cut it, you have a limited ability to evoke autophagy before you run out of willpower (in the case of starvation) or just general fatigue, the best diet to evoke autophagy without resorting to extremes of feeling like you're weak is a nutritonal ketogenic diet, or cyclic low protein nutritional ketogenic diet, and by no means a high carb / fasting cyclic diet, where you have to continually keto adapt and continually over-demand protein. Once in the keto-adapted state, protein demand goes down. The only way to retain the lowest protein demand, and therefore have higher autophagy potential, is to remain keto-adapted and not cycle in and out of it.
And here's some more food for thought:
A person who eats a shitty diet decides to fast in order to get healthier and try to age slower.
They fast for 2 weeks, feel like shit, and then start to replenish by eating slightly less than they were before, since their appetite was lowered during fasting thanks to the miracle of ketosis, and they do this for lets say 6 weeks. The doctor tests them and finds they are doing better than they were before 8 weeks ago because (1) they went into ketosis for 2 weeks (2) that reset their apetite for some time, or the entire time, in the replenishing period to some extent thanks to ketosis and (3) any unconfirmed effects of autophagy.
So attributing the beneficial effects of fasting to autophagy alone is not only getting ahead of yourself, it's blatantly ignoring the factors ketosis has on someone.
also I really want to point out the most novel aspect of a keto diet once more, there is no need to stray from, and it's even extremely beneficial to stay 100% strict wai, while being in ketosis
it's not a conflicting diet with wai, it's just different percentages of macronutrients and timing/sizing of meals to some extent
panacea wrote: The beneficial effect evoked by fasting being only because of autophagy, and not because of ketosis, has never even been studied or shown. No one cares about ketosis, so of course other things like autophagy get the spotlight by process of ignoring everything else.
How autophagy is beneficial is well understood:
Oxidation processes facilitate the utilisation of nutrients. A side effect of oxidation is collateral damage to organelles and nutrients.
When these damaged organelles and waste materials accumulate too much, the cell will dysfunction, and will get broken down.
Thus cell renewal occurs, which constitutes ageing of that cell line.
By creating an energy deficit, cells use those damaged organelles and accumulated waste materials for energy, thus cleaning up the cell.
This postpones eventual cell death, increasing lifespan of that cell line.
Now please explain in your own words how ketosis is beneficial.
Nutritional ketogenic diets induce autophagy on a higher level than any other diet, besides fasting, without the negative effects associated with fasting.
Microfasts are much more tolerable on a ketogenic diet, than any other diet, since you have better access to body fat for energy, and don't rely on glucose energy stores as much.
Protein cycling is easier on a ketogenic diet, since protein demands are decreased, lower protein demands make naturally slipping into low-protein autophagy happen more often and for longer durations, being able to cycle your protein intake easier allows for more low-protein autophagy control, if you care for it.
It suppresses appetite (in terms of overeating) to prevent suppressing autophagy in that way also.
It gives a steady supply of energy to the brain (as well as rest of the body) once keto-adapted in the mid to long term, providing better mental clarity/focus all day long.
Normalizes weight, prevents cravings, helps with epilepsy and diabetes, etc.
Free radical production is lessened while antioxidant production is increased (win-win for aging and so on)
Healthy keto foods are cheaper and easier to access/prepare, and available in more parts of the world, than non-keto health food like ripe fruit or very lean grassfed meats (cheaper to get energy from the grassfed fat)
also helps with oral health not having to sip carb based energy all day, fat is more long lasting, doesnt really impact oral health negatively at all AFAIK
I understand that autophagy may be/is indicated to be a beneficial process for longevity. What is not clear is what brings out the process where it is most needed, how often, and whether aging is this oversimplification you have about cell renewal, or not. Perhaps a healthier body can tolerate higher cell renewal, if its has better functioning in other areas. Perhaps by lowering metabolic rate, bodily energy demands as a whole, protein demands specifically, or some other aspect, the need for autophagy to keep cells clean decreases in the first place. There are a lot of factors to aging not just internal autophagy. The same is true for general health. How do you not see that autophagy is another microfad and oversimplification like "eating fat makes you fat" was in the 1950's (which was a macro fad) or carbon dioxide is a waste product of the body, oxygen is the essence of life/more is better, exercise cures all ailments (when mouth breathing or overintensity can make things worse).. there's a lot of nuances to health/longevity and a nutritional ketogenic diet puts the body in a state that addresses a ton of factors all at once, by using a moderate diet that gives a natural ability to not gorge, gives a natural ability to maintain energy levels (without having to sip juice or adapt to wai warrior over many years), and a moderate level of autophagy/recycling of various things in the body all the time, to try and increase metabolic efficiency and prevent loss of energy, which suddenly becomes important when you're not feasting on carbs.
Is craving for food really that bad? I mean, isn't that somehow our instinct? And how do you explain our natural sweeth tooth? Or you believe more in something like:
"Fruits are an excellent source of energy and are relatively safe for us to eat, so I suppose from an evolutionary standpoint, it would make sense for us to be drawn to them. It may be that, like alcohol and other plant-derived substances like cocaine that are clearly not healthy for us, just because we want something doesn't necessarily mean it's good for us. It could also be that plants are exploiting us for our sweet tooth weakness."
Source: http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/food/fruit ... 2572690937 (this was an answer that Dr. Ede gave about our sweet tooth)
"How did we become the smartest?
Eating vegetable foods only, approximately 5 million years ago, we were not smarter than other primates. Only when we started combining fruits with animal foods, between 3 and 2 million years ago, the size of our brains rapidly increased."
"What made the capacity of our brain increase?
The combination of sugars and cholesterol. Simply because sugars are the main source of energy for the brain, and cholesterol is most essential to the brain for construction purposes.
Fruits contain easy-to-digest sugars, raw animal food contains 'clean' cholesterol, and they both contain the required fat and protein. Together these foods contain all nutrients you need, and are ideal to increase brain capacity."
Source: http://www.waiworld.com/waisays/food/brainfood.html
When I read this on the Waiworld, I thought it being pretty interesting. But reading all the benefits, on the Keto Diet, well, I can't really understand if sugar is the optimal or not for our brain.
I'm finding some interesting points on the Ketogenic Diet (have to mention that I didn't do a deeply research):
- https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ev ... in-ketones
"Except here's the dirty little secret about glucose - when you look at the amount of garbage leftover in the mitochondria, it is actually less efficient to make ATP from glucose than it is to make ATP from ketone bodies! A more efficient energy supply makes it easier to restore membranes in the brain to their normal states after a depolarizing electrical energy spike occurs, and means that energy is produced with fewer destructive free radicals leftover. What does it all mean? Well, in the brain, energy is everything. The brain needs a great deal of energy to keep all those membrane potentials maintained - to keep pushing sodium out of the cells and pulling potassium into the cells. In fact, the brain, which is only 2% of our body weight, uses 20% of our oxygen and 10% of our glucose stores just to keep running. (Some cells in our brain are actually too small (or have tendrils that are too small) to accommodate mitochondria (the power plants). In those places, we must use glucose itself (via glycolysis) to create ATP.) When we change the main fuel of the brain from glucose to ketones, we change amino acid handling. And that means we change the ratios of glutamate and GABA. The best responders to a ketogenic diet for epilepsy end up with the highest amount of GABA in the central nervous system."
Also, obviously, in a long run, being directly dependent from glucose doesn't make you achieve the same goals, this is, there will be a point that you want to get glucose from anything (somehow related to having less cravings).
@Panacea, can you tell us how your nutrient intake has been this last past weeks?
panacea wrote:You also have 0, flat out 0 understanding of what a spike is. If insulin increases on a diet that represents the least amount of insulin increase possible to sustain life, it is less of a spike than fasting for a period, having less insulin increase or none at all, and then HAVING to eat more and causing a BIGGER insulin increase compared to the diet which had the minimal increase. Because it's not the time period where no insulin increase is important, it's the degree of insulin increase that is important. If humans didn't need energy, then you're right, fasting forever would be the best cure for insulin-spike related diseases like diabetes, but that is the most idiotic narrow minded way to consider a solution, since it doesn't work in the real world, people just die or have to eventually eat an energy-intensive diet with shocks their insulin and prolongs diabetes.
The term "spike" literally means: a sharp increase in the magnitude or concentration of something.
Imagine a flat line representing insulin level. This represents fasting lets say, and also results in death if not countered by high energy intake.
High energy intake would be a line that spikes up by a lot.
Nutritional ketosis would be a moderate energy intake which is represented by a line that goes up higher than the flat line, but not higher than the high energy intake state.
That does NOT mean that "ANY" increase from the magnitude or concentration of insulin is an insulin SPIKE. It must be COMPARED to what is normal. Not what is most often encountered by the masses on a shitty diet, but what is NORMAL for sustaining life.
Regarding insulin spike, and what I understood from panacea, which kind made sense for me, is that of course we spike insulin every time we eat protein and sugar, but, on a ketogenic diet, we can't compare the level of spike from a high-carb diet.
- http://i.imgur.com/237tacJ.png
From my perspective, I will try to make an analogy (this probably doesn't have scientific validity at all and it doesn't work like this presumably. I will just use logic and numbers to try to understand it):
High-Carb Diet, insulin resistance: 1.40.
After having meal, this value spikes, for example, to 2.00 (+0.60).
Ketogenic Diet, insulin resistance: 0.30
Even after having one meal and spiking the same way (+0.60), the final number, 0.90, would be much lesser than a High-Carb diet.
(I will say it again, this probably doesn't function like this.)
I will try to follow novidez's analogy (this probably doesn't have any scientific validity at all, and it doesn't work like this presumably. I will just use logic and numbers to try to understand it):
Autophagy, insulin resistance: 0.00
During fasting window, this value spikes, for example, to 0.00 (+ 0 times 0.60 a.k.a. no-meal)
At Eating Window, Insulin resistance: 0.00
After having a large meal, the final number, 1.20, (+ 2 times 0.60), until meal is digested and goes back to 0.0 over fasting period.
Is this near from what you want to mean rrm?
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Aytundra...KetogenicdietThread...Post-45
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Aytundra wrote:I will try to follow novidez's analogy (this probably doesn't have any scientific validity at all, and it doesn't work like this presumably. I will just use logic and numbers to try to understand it):
Ahah
Autophagy, insulin resistance: 0.00
During fasting window, this value spikes, for example, to 0.00 (+ 0 times 0.60 a.k.a. no-meal)
At Eating Window, Insulin resistance: 0.00
After having a large meal, the final number, 1.20, (+ 2 times 0.60), until meal is digested and goes back to 0.0 over fasting period.
Even though it's our way to understand it, you put 0.00 as an example, right? Because I think we don't become that sensitive to the point we don't have any resistance at all... or can we? :O (I'm asking this but perhaps do not have any relevance for our health. And, of course, I always have this thing rooted in my brain that the less insulin, the better for our health. It can't be helped. I really have to search more about the insulin subject )
@Novidez cravings for food is the sole reason people eat things like Potato Chips, and not raw fish. They crave unhealthy food, even though they know it's not the healthiest food and not the best for them. The vast majority of the modern world, when we have the ability to choose our own food due to having money, has this problem. So yes, preventing cravings in the first place is leaps and bounds more effective than trying to control them via willpower, since the general population is proof that our willpower usually sucks.
The body craves carbs, because it can bulk up bodily energy stores on carbs for a rainy day. It never learned to crave a high fat diet since that's basically not available in most climates (without preparing food) without the carbs to go with it. It only learned to sustain on a high fat "diet" from digesting body fat as a survival mechanism. That's why appetite is lowered during fasting and nutritional ketosis - the body thinks there are no ample amounts of carbs to be found at that time. In nature, it would've been a relatively necessary process to bulk up on carbs, like most animals do in spring, and then go into nutritional ketosis or fasting during winter when food is scarce. Therefore, the body is adapted to both states, it just turns out that in the current modern context, not having to scavenge for fruit all day long like a monkey tends to be better suited to our lifestyle, and provides a defense against our most likely enemies - diseases like diabetes which result from gorging on carbs for a long period of time, because our "winter" of food scarcity never comes. It has other nuance benefits, but the main one is that it removes all of the crap we typically eat, then lets the body recycle itself slowly, just like fasting does, without having to replenish later on with carbs like fasting typically requires.
The traditional ketogenic diets on the internet are not wai. The closest mainstream version is a vegan/vegetarian ketogenic diet. I don't advocate these, because they are inferior to a raw, wai, ketogenic diet. Nobody has really knowingly done these in the modern world, so very little is known about the beneficial effects - but we can extrapolate from the beneficial effects seen on a non raw, or partially raw, or fully raw, non-wai ketogenic diet as thousands of people diet that way and a good percentage of them are active online. There's also studies about ketogenic diets for people with epilepsy and so on that have gone for long periods, showing no bad side effects. It tends to calm epilepsy and diabetes partly because it gives stable energy levels all day long without the typical rollercoaster, or yo-yo side effects that come with a high carb diet, in the blood, brain, everywhere. Healthy people can perfectly cope with the high carb yo-yo diet, especially when they don't gorge on a high carb diet, or atleast balance their feasts, and they can do so perfectly on a raw wai diet since it doesn't have the factors of processed or cooked food affecting appetite.. In terms of a raw wai diet, with high carb, for an already healthy person, only a few differences will be noticed compared to a raw wai ketogenic diet, and either one is perfectly healthy. I think the pros/cons basically come down to this: High carb wai has more fluctuating energy levels throughout a day, keto wai has stable energy levels. This means you can do intense exercise on high carb easier, but live a typical low-intensity lifestyle like we do in the modern world easily on a keto wai diet as well. Another difference is immune system strength, it's typically a little stronger on high carb wai, than keto wai. Another difference is autophagy/antioxidant activity is typically evoked more on keto wai, than high carb wai, if you're into that stuff. The main benefit for me, is getting food under control, and staying mentally focused all day long for my work, but that's certainly not the only benefit. All of the benefits you get on high carb wai, you would get on raw keto wai as well (in all likelihood, since it is a 100% wai diet after all)
Try not to oversimplify that all sugar is bad, or all sweets are bad. Some carbs are allowed even on raw wai keto, to stay in nutritional ketosis. Sugar isn't any more bad for you than water is, they just have to be taken in correct amounts according to the diet you're trying to accomplish. Water can kill you if you drank a ton of it, ducked underneath it for a relatively short time, etc. There is a way to find danger in everything, don't believe oversimplifications because there'es almost always more nuanced aspects to any topic. It's hard to define what to look for, logically, but it basically boils down to an inter-connected series of concepts about a topic. In general, the more you expand your awareness on a topic, the more you get a feel for the truth. Where most people fail, is that they only expand their awareness in narrow-minded directions or areas, reinforcing only what they already know, which just leads to not expanding awareness at all really. If something is hard to believe because it bothers you emotionally, then just ignore that feeling. If something is hard to believe because it sounds contradictory to many more phenomena or inter-connected concepts, as in, if it doesn't fit into a puzzle that is reinforced by many puzzle pieces, then trust that feeling, but at the same time, investigate, don't stop there. That's what I really mean by thinking logically. It's not about math or numbers at all.
Insulin spike basically comes from mostly carbs. By not eating a carb-based diet, you don't spike insulin, but it still goes up and down as you eat, especially if you eat a few carbs. Fasting seems like the best way not to increase insulin at all, on the surface, but the replenishing period after fasting causes you to eat bigger meals, increasing insulin even more than a moderate ketogenic diet. Therefore, in the long run, the ketogenic diet wins the "lowest overall insulin activity" race. However, there is a catch 22 to this, in the beginning stages of a ketogenic diet, most people start out by semi-fasting, because they try to use body fat as their dietary fat instead of eating it. It's kind of like a halfway point between getting all your energy from diet, and fasting. You get a considerable amount of energy from the body (like fasting), but also some from diet.
This happens to a lesser extent down the road, when your weight is normalized, and you're keto-adapted, because even though you're eating a lot of fat, your body still uses body fat for energy as well as dietary fat, since it's not as easy to get from the gut/liver/etc as a carb based diet that keeps glucose in several places for ready-demand.
In other words, thinking logically, is not using symbolic logic like in math, but ignoring emotional bias as much as possible, by prioritizing the need for absolute truth above what is entertaining, easy, feels good, etc to believe. Sometimes the brain can trick you into not noticing that something is a bias, which is why you develop tools/tricks over time to do things like ask yourself "do I have any emotional reason to believe in...this (lets use the example of an afterlife)"? If you study psychology at all, you'd know the answer is yes - we all feel attached to our "selves", our memories and egos. You can then deduce, logically, that your thinking and rationalization about an afterlife being plausible has structural and logical holes in it. Then you analyze, if I wasn't biased, would someone telling me a magical place no one has ever proved exists, that I've never touched or seen in real photographs, would I believe that person? If you're honest with yourself at that point, you can logically trace the steps it takes to dispel superstition. As hard as that is to do for religion, spirituality, free will, etc. it is even harder to do for real-world things like health, because so much seems tangible and real, when it is merely exaggerated or ignored in most cases, in varying degrees.
A perfect example to test yourself on, which wont be so easy to see through on the surface:
Black holes, question your beliefs on it, see what you deduce, regardless of what the world thinks. You may have to google for 10 minutes.
panacea wrote:Nutritional ketogenic diets induce autophagy on a higher level than any other diet, besides fasting, without the negative effects associated with fasting.
Nonsense.
Ketosis does not induce autophagy.
Ketogenic diets do not induce autophagy. Only in the fasting phase of any diet (including ketogenic diets) you may induce autophagy, which comes with an increased use of ketone bodies instead of glucogenic bodies for energy.
So, only during fasting, autophagy is induced on a ketogenic diet (or any other diet).
Without fasting, no autophagy. (besides chemically induced autophagy; eg resveratrol)
In ketosis, relatively more ketone bodies than glucogenic bodies are used for energy (keep in mind that even in bodyfat, this ratio is 3:1)
Ketosis is simply the "fat burning" mode. These fats may come from bodyfat, or diet, as you said. ("nutritional ketosis")
Even if you consume loads of fat only, you are still using predominantly fat for energy, while you may actually gain bodyfat as well.
That is ketosis, but not a starvation mode, at all.
Longer-term ketosis may result from staying on a low-carbohydrate diet.
And you may gain weight continuously on such a low-carb diet. Or not. (which depends on the balance between energy surplusses and energy deficits.
panacea wrote:Ketogenic diets allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7, thereby giving the best life extension from starvation mode benefit.
You are consistently mis-using the word "starvation mode".
In starvation mode, there is an energy deficit, and never an energy surplus.
In ketosis, there may be an energy surplus or deficit.
Logically, this is also essential when on a diet which is to be followed 24/7, because you cannot be in starvation mode 24/7 without losing weight 24/7.
A 24/7 ketogenic diet is sustainable.
A 24/7 starvation mode is not sustainable.
Fasting is only sustainable if sufficiently compensated by bulking up.
Therefore, the statement "Ketogenic diets allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7" is 100% false.
RRM wrote: Ketosis does not induce autophagy.
Ketogenic diets do not induce autophagy.
Only in the fasting phase of any diet you may induce autophagy,
"any diet"
@ panacea, are you planning to do a wai-warrior-ketogenic diet? as opposed to a wai-ketogenic diet?
RRM wrote: Only in the fasting phase of any diet you may induce autophagy, which comes with an increased use of ketone bodies instead of glucogenic bodies for energy.
ketone bodies are used in autophagy? ketone bodies are used in ketoge nic diets?
The word Ketogenic is so similar to ketones.
Is Panacea mistaking ketogenic as ketone gets used up, and thinks it is the same ketone used up in autophagy?
dietary-ketones
organelle-ketones
just a thought
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Aytundra-KetogenicDietThread-Post-44
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
panacea wrote:Oh and how ketosis cures diabetes ... It works by not spiking insulin
For that, you need to consume no carbs and no protein at all.
...you still call it a spike, then you're delusional.
This insulin response needs to be corrected ... by setting the influx of glucose and amino acids to 0 (nil)
the ketogenic diet wins the "lowest overall insulin activity" race.
You are missing the point.
Diabetes is not cured by minimizing insulin spikes.
In diabetes the insulin response is out of wack.
This requires a reset.
You cannot reset this system by evoking little insulin release.
You may compare it to fine-tuning an instrument. For fine-tuning / resetting, you need a reference point.
"little insulin" is not a valid reference point.
"0" is a valid reference point.
Of course, the release of insulin is never 0, as it is also used to control the level of ketone bodies, for example.
But no insulin-triggering molecules entering the bloodstream from the intestines is the best "0" that you can get.
So, fasting definitely wins "the lowest overall insulin activity race".
Then you will say: "but after fasting comes bulking up, which huge insulin spikes".
Sure, but all that insulin released is justified.
Therefore it does not undo the 'reset influence' evoked by fasting.
What does?
That what causes insulin resistence: continuing to ingest energy when the glycogen depots are fully repleted.
That is when insulin cannot facilitate the storage of excess glucogenic bodies into glycogen.
The glucogenic bodies therefore remain in the bloodstream and keep triggering the release of insulin, which keeps failing to facilitate the storage of energy, which keeps triggering the release of insulin.
This is a short circuit.
This is what causes insulin resistence.
Not insulin spikes.
Not high sugar meals.
Insulin spikes do not hinder the reset of the insulin system if justified, and only fasting may reset the insulin system.
Low insulin spikes (above "0") do not cut it.
)
