all of this stuff I'm saying about ketogenic diets is now adopted by buteyko, as they learned by pairing buteyko and a ketogenic diet, they were getting much better results. however what I have to add to the formula is "raw wai keto" instead of standard keto. there are other variants such as cyclic protein keto, for autophagy, and other variants depending on what you're aiming for. in my opinion, trying to extend life by evoking autophagy is inferior to extending life by focusing on buteyko. right now I'm not focused on either of those though, since my personal gamble for long life relies on the chance of technological life extension.
previously in buteyko, you had to exercise a lot to maintain high cp. now that need is somewhat lessened by a ketogenic diet.
ketogenic diet
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panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet
Great.panacea wrote:CorrectRRM wrote:Thus, you cannot be in a starvation mode 24/7 without losing weight. Right?panacea wrote:Given that the definition of starvation is ... merely putting in severely less energy than you need
So, we can finally agree that the following statement is false?
Because:panacea wrote:Ketogenic diets allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7, thereby giving the best life extension from starvation mode benefit.
A) if there is no severe energy deficit, there may be ketosis, but no starvation mode
B) if there is a severe energy deficit, this diet is not sustainable without compensation (and thus becomes intermittent fasting)
Re: ketogenic diet
The definition of starvation is putting severely less energy in or getting less energy out of what you put in
The phrase starvation mode simply means your body is in a state where it is ready to use bodily energy stores, or evoke autophagy, to supply much of its energy needs.
You can stay in starvation mode 24/7 on a ketogenic diet, just like you can by fasting. For example, eat one slice of red meat a day, you're on a severely caloric restricted ketogenic diet, and you are in starvation mode 24/7, just like fasting.
Furthermore, in the normal case where you eat normally on a ketogenic diet, your body can remain in a keto adapted state, using body fat for energy, and remain in a state of using chaperone mediated autophagy, even while eating. This is "starvation mode", and yes, you are severely lacking in external energy the entire time. Unlike on a high carb diet, you don't turn most external energy into glucose stores, you turn it into body fat, which then gets turned back into ketones. To put it simply, on a ketogenic diet, you allow your body to partly eat itself (body fat/CMA), in a way that closely resembles how it eats itself when fasting. On a non-ketogenic diet, such as a high carb diet, dietary energy is stored mostly as glucose and this does not mimic the fasting state at all. In other words, it does not mean you are in starvation mode. In a ketogenic diet, you are.
*This is acknowledging the fact that moderate or low protein intake can create glucose for the body, just like breaking down muscle protein during fasting can. The presence of more glucose suppresses the starvation mode to an extent, but as long as you are in ketosis (nutritional or fasting ketosis) starvation mode is still in effect. The same/similar bodily effects are happening (ketosis/autophagy/protein sparing/glucose recycling increased).
The phrase starvation mode simply means your body is in a state where it is ready to use bodily energy stores, or evoke autophagy, to supply much of its energy needs.
You can stay in starvation mode 24/7 on a ketogenic diet, just like you can by fasting. For example, eat one slice of red meat a day, you're on a severely caloric restricted ketogenic diet, and you are in starvation mode 24/7, just like fasting.
Furthermore, in the normal case where you eat normally on a ketogenic diet, your body can remain in a keto adapted state, using body fat for energy, and remain in a state of using chaperone mediated autophagy, even while eating. This is "starvation mode", and yes, you are severely lacking in external energy the entire time. Unlike on a high carb diet, you don't turn most external energy into glucose stores, you turn it into body fat, which then gets turned back into ketones. To put it simply, on a ketogenic diet, you allow your body to partly eat itself (body fat/CMA), in a way that closely resembles how it eats itself when fasting. On a non-ketogenic diet, such as a high carb diet, dietary energy is stored mostly as glucose and this does not mimic the fasting state at all. In other words, it does not mean you are in starvation mode. In a ketogenic diet, you are.
*This is acknowledging the fact that moderate or low protein intake can create glucose for the body, just like breaking down muscle protein during fasting can. The presence of more glucose suppresses the starvation mode to an extent, but as long as you are in ketosis (nutritional or fasting ketosis) starvation mode is still in effect. The same/similar bodily effects are happening (ketosis/autophagy/protein sparing/glucose recycling increased).
Re: ketogenic diet
Furthermore, while you can bulk up on mass besides body fat (such as muscle) on a ketogenic diet, you can only do so gradually and remain in ketosis, by not overeating protein during a certain timeframe. if you try to do it quickly, you will exit ketosis, and at that point you are not on a ketogenic diet, but a cyclic ketogenic diet, or not a ketogenic diet at all. The reason this doesn't take you out of ketosis, is because with more muscle mass, you have a greater energy demand, that has to be constantly supplied, therefore warranting a slightly greater intake of protein/energy to continue bulking up (however, it's not feasible to eat every second of the day including while asleep, so there is always some autophagy/ketone activity while in ketosis, and there is even some autophagy/ketone activity while you are satiated with moderate protein, since energy has a greater time delay when using the fat to ketone pathway than the carb to glucose pathway)
Re: ketogenic diet
Another way to look at it. If you eat a pound of fat all at once, that's a lot of energy. Your body can't use it all at once, so it will try to pack it on you to store it for later, in the form of body fat. With no carb energy to eat, it will be eating your own body fat (yourself) as well as evoke autophagy to supply its energy needs right then, as well as later. Unlike a high carb diet where you have readily available glucose for all your energy needs, a body in ketosis does not have this luxury, it is Forced to either 1) eat itself and remain in ketosis or 2) get enough energy from carbs to exit ketosis. By remaining in ketosis, you force your body to at least in part, eat itself. The same is true for fasting, except if you completely fast, you force the body to first deplete glucose stores then eat itself entirely. The same mechanisms happen in fasting ketosis or nutritional ketosis, but since fasting ketosis is a more severe form than nutritional ketosis, the same effects are more pronounced when comparing 1:1. However, again, fasting is not sustainable, so you can't compare 1:1, because nutritional ketosis can go for decades/until death.
Re: ketogenic diet
Are glucose stores filled in a ketogenic diet?
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: ketogenic diet
Long term, no.
When someone just starts a ketogenic diet, they may be filled from a previous high carb diet.
In general, the only sources of extra glucose on a ketogenic diet are very minimal dietary carbs, if you want them (less than 50 g for example, although best to keep below 30 g, personally I try and eat 0 g) and the other source is gluconeogenesis, in which case your body makes glucose from non-carb sources, it does this to feed things that need some glucose, like the brain, even when keto-adapted.
A human stores typically around 1000-1600 calories of glucose in the form of glycogen in our body, you can think of this as a type of "easily accessible fuel" which can also be easily replenished by dietary carbs. We can store hundreds of thousands of calories in the form of fat, so we have much more potential fat energy than glucose energy. (Some) people can fast for months on their body fat stores. That is also essentially what a ketogenic diet does, except you replenish energy with a high fat and moderate or low protein diet to replenish the lowest levels necessary in order not to waste muscle, become underweight, or lose mental performance. Furthermore, ketones, an alternate form of energy for the body that come from fat, are more effective fuels in the sense that cells can create much more energy from them than glucose. That's probably why the body (and other animals, especially large sea creatures) stores so much body fat for a rainy day, and why we haven't evolved to store hundreds of thousands of calories of glucose/glycogen (from carbs).
When someone just starts a ketogenic diet, they may be filled from a previous high carb diet.
In general, the only sources of extra glucose on a ketogenic diet are very minimal dietary carbs, if you want them (less than 50 g for example, although best to keep below 30 g, personally I try and eat 0 g) and the other source is gluconeogenesis, in which case your body makes glucose from non-carb sources, it does this to feed things that need some glucose, like the brain, even when keto-adapted.
A human stores typically around 1000-1600 calories of glucose in the form of glycogen in our body, you can think of this as a type of "easily accessible fuel" which can also be easily replenished by dietary carbs. We can store hundreds of thousands of calories in the form of fat, so we have much more potential fat energy than glucose energy. (Some) people can fast for months on their body fat stores. That is also essentially what a ketogenic diet does, except you replenish energy with a high fat and moderate or low protein diet to replenish the lowest levels necessary in order not to waste muscle, become underweight, or lose mental performance. Furthermore, ketones, an alternate form of energy for the body that come from fat, are more effective fuels in the sense that cells can create much more energy from them than glucose. That's probably why the body (and other animals, especially large sea creatures) stores so much body fat for a rainy day, and why we haven't evolved to store hundreds of thousands of calories of glucose/glycogen (from carbs).
Re: ketogenic diet
Are glycogen stores filled in a ketogenic diet?
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: ketogenic diet
Since the typical upper tolerance of a ketogenic diet is ~50g of carbs, that translates into 200 calories, so no, not "filled up" at all
However you can "fill" a glass of water partly, with one droplet, if that's what you mean, then yes on a ketogenic diet, a tiny amount of carbs may be stored as glycogen, perhaps it would be better if you explain what you are trying to understand at the same time as asking questions almost identical to the last one
However you can "fill" a glass of water partly, with one droplet, if that's what you mean, then yes on a ketogenic diet, a tiny amount of carbs may be stored as glycogen, perhaps it would be better if you explain what you are trying to understand at the same time as asking questions almost identical to the last one
Re: ketogenic diet
Do proteins and fats from food fill the glycogen depots?
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: ketogenic diet
Not directly, but they can indirectly. Are you still asking about a ketogenic diet, such as the levels of protein and fats from a ketogenic diet, or just proteins and fats in general? 200 g of protein might fill the depots up quite a bit, but not if it was slowly ingested over the course of 3 days, so as you can see, you need to be much more specific, and actually let us know what concept you are trying to understand, so that I can give a helpful answer.
Re: ketogenic diet
I'm trying to assemble what would be the easiest, best, cheapest, healthiest, etc. raw wai version of a ketogenic diet.
So far I'm thinking:
Raw egg yolks (no sac no white), preferably from organic free-range hens allowed to roam around. Theoretically, at first glance, looks like even a large 6'8 male like me could eat 35 of these a day and nothing else, and get all of my fat/protein needs for a 15% deficit (my current goal) in almost laserlike perfect proportions (1.6 ratio of fats to protein). Of course eating one thing is not good at all, but if it had to be only one thing, egg yolks would be a good candidate. One problem high carb wai dieters have is that eating a lot of egg yolks makes you feel tired. I wonder if the extra ability to handle dietary fats while keto-adapted would change this, makes me want to try out a lot of them. That would give 35 g of carbs though (1 g per yolk), but that shouldnt be a problem if not eaten all at once which one wouldnt do anyway if one had a brain.
What is most importantly missing, besides a little vitamin c, in my opinion at least, is fish fats for brain health, so of course raw wild caught salmon, or tilapia, come to mind. I used to be a huge fan of salmon, but all the truly wild caught brands at all my stores are very very lean, having huge amounts of protein and almost no fat, which just isn't ok on a ketogenic diet because it'd be very hard to make up for that imbalance. So I'm going to look at tilapia again when I go back to the store, hopefully that is a fattier-sold fish around here.
For vitamin c, fatty cuts of raw beef come to mind, or just a small amount of fruit like kiwi. The problem, however, is that if you're eating egg yolks, beef, and fish, there are some carbs stored in the meat (as glycogen), and carbs in the yolk, so you'll be getting close to the carb limit even without any fruit intake. My thinking right now is that fruit would be perfectly tolerable in small amounts if exercising on a ketogenic diet, but being sedentary like I am, it's going to make it harder to balance a raw wai keto diet.
I'm trying to steer as far away as I can from coconut and olive oil, although EVOO I naturally crave in tiny amounts. coconut oil is often held as the holy grail for keto dieters, and I think it's a big mistake, the stuff just tastes weird compared to the other keto foods, and especially compared to beef fat or fish fat. It is my hunch and only my hunch, that coconut oil, mct oil, olive oil, even the best kinds, are inferior foods compared to raw animal fats from good sources. Avocado fat is a great source, but unfortunately avocados have way too many carbs to go along with them.
It seems that almost out of necessity, a raw wai keto diet will be one consisting mainly of animal foods, rich in fat and protein, in about a 1.6-1.7 ratio of fat:protein.
I also am a huge fan of real sea salt, completely unrefined (even has a little sand in it) from ancient oceans (not the current ones), just as a type of trace mineral supplement and electrolyte powerhouse. Not much water will be needed on a completely raw wai keto diet, but what little is needed should probably come in the form of standard spring water. In my opinion, buying more expensive, healthier water, puts pressure on the types of expensive foods you can afford, which in my opinion is more important than expensive water, so standard spring water will be the best for that reason, unless you're rich, buy Evian or something.
So basically - egg yolks, fatty fish, fatty cuts of beef (perhaps organs), sea salt, spring water. All raw, and all high quality (not cheap brands from grocery stores). Fresh is probably better than frozen simply to keep your taste buds happy, if nothing else, but that is hard to achieve for me.
All in all, the food sources are either very limited, or very simple, depending on how you look at it.
So far I'm thinking:
Raw egg yolks (no sac no white), preferably from organic free-range hens allowed to roam around. Theoretically, at first glance, looks like even a large 6'8 male like me could eat 35 of these a day and nothing else, and get all of my fat/protein needs for a 15% deficit (my current goal) in almost laserlike perfect proportions (1.6 ratio of fats to protein). Of course eating one thing is not good at all, but if it had to be only one thing, egg yolks would be a good candidate. One problem high carb wai dieters have is that eating a lot of egg yolks makes you feel tired. I wonder if the extra ability to handle dietary fats while keto-adapted would change this, makes me want to try out a lot of them. That would give 35 g of carbs though (1 g per yolk), but that shouldnt be a problem if not eaten all at once which one wouldnt do anyway if one had a brain.
What is most importantly missing, besides a little vitamin c, in my opinion at least, is fish fats for brain health, so of course raw wild caught salmon, or tilapia, come to mind. I used to be a huge fan of salmon, but all the truly wild caught brands at all my stores are very very lean, having huge amounts of protein and almost no fat, which just isn't ok on a ketogenic diet because it'd be very hard to make up for that imbalance. So I'm going to look at tilapia again when I go back to the store, hopefully that is a fattier-sold fish around here.
For vitamin c, fatty cuts of raw beef come to mind, or just a small amount of fruit like kiwi. The problem, however, is that if you're eating egg yolks, beef, and fish, there are some carbs stored in the meat (as glycogen), and carbs in the yolk, so you'll be getting close to the carb limit even without any fruit intake. My thinking right now is that fruit would be perfectly tolerable in small amounts if exercising on a ketogenic diet, but being sedentary like I am, it's going to make it harder to balance a raw wai keto diet.
I'm trying to steer as far away as I can from coconut and olive oil, although EVOO I naturally crave in tiny amounts. coconut oil is often held as the holy grail for keto dieters, and I think it's a big mistake, the stuff just tastes weird compared to the other keto foods, and especially compared to beef fat or fish fat. It is my hunch and only my hunch, that coconut oil, mct oil, olive oil, even the best kinds, are inferior foods compared to raw animal fats from good sources. Avocado fat is a great source, but unfortunately avocados have way too many carbs to go along with them.
It seems that almost out of necessity, a raw wai keto diet will be one consisting mainly of animal foods, rich in fat and protein, in about a 1.6-1.7 ratio of fat:protein.
I also am a huge fan of real sea salt, completely unrefined (even has a little sand in it) from ancient oceans (not the current ones), just as a type of trace mineral supplement and electrolyte powerhouse. Not much water will be needed on a completely raw wai keto diet, but what little is needed should probably come in the form of standard spring water. In my opinion, buying more expensive, healthier water, puts pressure on the types of expensive foods you can afford, which in my opinion is more important than expensive water, so standard spring water will be the best for that reason, unless you're rich, buy Evian or something.
So basically - egg yolks, fatty fish, fatty cuts of beef (perhaps organs), sea salt, spring water. All raw, and all high quality (not cheap brands from grocery stores). Fresh is probably better than frozen simply to keep your taste buds happy, if nothing else, but that is hard to achieve for me.
All in all, the food sources are either very limited, or very simple, depending on how you look at it.
Re: ketogenic diet
I was thinking what would happen to the glycogen storage liver department when you stop using them.
Does it become obsolete like the appendix? Would you lose your function to process glycogen?
I just read your plan:
35 egg yolks?
What about the ALA, would you be able to process all that?
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=398&p=24341&hilit=women#p24341
On the topic of starvation
Have you read this on wikipedia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation
How you plan to balance protein with enough fat might be quite important!
Does it become obsolete like the appendix? Would you lose your function to process glycogen?
I just read your plan:
35 egg yolks?
What about the ALA, would you be able to process all that?
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=398&p=24341&hilit=women#p24341
On the topic of starvation
Have you read this on wikipedia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation
How you plan to balance protein with enough fat might be quite important!
Last edited by Aytundra on Sun 17 Apr 2016 03:30, edited 2 times in total.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: ketogenic diet
Some other things that are unknown territory, because raw wai keto differs from standard keto, even vegetarian keto.
I have a hunch that high quality animal protein, means you need to ingest less protein, for example keto calculators say I need 100 g a day for a 15% deficit goal, I bet that's as accurate as a calculator can get for a standard keto diet, but with raw wai keto, probably the protein quality is higher and less protein in total is needed. Perhaps less fat is even needed. I have no idea, but all fats may not be equal, just as all proteins and carbs aren't.. it seems logical at least. Also, by ingesting less waste like less fiber, less cooked food, less toxins created by cooking, the body probably has a lower digestive load (requires less energy to deal with all of those problems that are suddenly gone), so total dietary needs may decrease because of that as well.
Furthermore, breathing (buteyko related) may normalize better on a raw wai keto diet, even without any training for this (as indicated by buteyko students), which increases the metabolic efficiency of all organs, probably producing less waste/need for dietary energy in that regard, as well. Even things like being able to better control your body temperature, over the course of a day or week, probably has a profound impact on your energy needs (if blood vessels can dilate due to high internal carbon dioxide, less heat needs to be produced by other, more wasteful methods, like increased heart rate).
I have a hunch that high quality animal protein, means you need to ingest less protein, for example keto calculators say I need 100 g a day for a 15% deficit goal, I bet that's as accurate as a calculator can get for a standard keto diet, but with raw wai keto, probably the protein quality is higher and less protein in total is needed. Perhaps less fat is even needed. I have no idea, but all fats may not be equal, just as all proteins and carbs aren't.. it seems logical at least. Also, by ingesting less waste like less fiber, less cooked food, less toxins created by cooking, the body probably has a lower digestive load (requires less energy to deal with all of those problems that are suddenly gone), so total dietary needs may decrease because of that as well.
Furthermore, breathing (buteyko related) may normalize better on a raw wai keto diet, even without any training for this (as indicated by buteyko students), which increases the metabolic efficiency of all organs, probably producing less waste/need for dietary energy in that regard, as well. Even things like being able to better control your body temperature, over the course of a day or week, probably has a profound impact on your energy needs (if blood vessels can dilate due to high internal carbon dioxide, less heat needs to be produced by other, more wasteful methods, like increased heart rate).
Re: ketogenic diet
@Aytundra
My plan is not 35 egg yolks a day. I used that as an example baseline to establish how they could in theory work by themselves to a large extent, but it's obviously not a good idea as they are lacking in some nutrients, and even if they weren't (like perhaps raw fatty beef), it's still better to get a little variety at least, because science perhaps isn't done documenting all trace things we need from food and which foods contain those things.
Ideally, the best raw wai keto diet would include even fruits, but that would basically require exercise to be a normal thing in your day as well, I'm trying to find the best sedentary raw wai keto diet, at the moment, and if I can manage that diet, the desire for exercise will probably come naturally, and I'll go from there.
My plan is not 35 egg yolks a day. I used that as an example baseline to establish how they could in theory work by themselves to a large extent, but it's obviously not a good idea as they are lacking in some nutrients, and even if they weren't (like perhaps raw fatty beef), it's still better to get a little variety at least, because science perhaps isn't done documenting all trace things we need from food and which foods contain those things.
Ideally, the best raw wai keto diet would include even fruits, but that would basically require exercise to be a normal thing in your day as well, I'm trying to find the best sedentary raw wai keto diet, at the moment, and if I can manage that diet, the desire for exercise will probably come naturally, and I'll go from there.