"Meditation" debate

[Aytundra]

in my opinion

Not my idea of fun.

I don't have the travel gears and appropriate clothing to take on dumpster diving right now.

So you blame for picking on you, but have you tried to look the way you reason your arguments and how you talk only about yourself and only though your perspective and make it the whole truth?

Well you crashed into my diary disagreeing with my belief "that mediation is not good for aytundra" and that you believe that aytundra should have meditation. So far you have not convinced me that meditation is for aytundra. Meanwhile you were trying tactics such as name calling and telling me I have an ego and I am judging ...etc. So if you want to play that game, I can also sink to that low level of name calling too on name calling Meditation.

Currently those posts were moved here and made a new thread called " "Meditation" debate " by the board {thank you board!}.
I am still going to answer with my opinions and perspective of how I view the topic of Meditation, because that is the only position I have so far.
I have not duplicated my mind to travel out of my body into another body and saying things from another self so to speak.
If you want that fun, I can invent something similar, like meditation-aytundra or something like that or transcended-aytundra, or not-logical-aytundra, or not-thinking-aytundra, or enlightened-aytundra or not-judging-aytundra...etc.

The fact that Aytundra has to go on and on and on answering to say and explain why meditation approaching is a fad is probably a good indicator that her reasoning can go away easily.

Because you were going on and on and on about meditation.
I am just continuing to be a good sport about keeping this arm wrestling match that you seem to be enjoying going.

[Novidez]

Well you crashed into my diary disagreeing with my belief "that mediation is not good for aytundra"

No, I 'crashed' into your diary saying what you did wasn't meditation at all. We have been discussing your point of view and how you have been experiencing (your) meditation.

and that you believe that aytundra should have meditation.

The fact that Kasper and I said that you should have meditation affect you that much? If you think is not suitable for you, then don't do it. It is that simple. I agreed with Kasper, because you remind me when I heard meditation too for the first time: I thought it was a fad too. Today, I don't see it like that.

So far you have not convinced me that meditation is for aytundra.

What's the point of convincing a person that only see his point of view, makes its own conclusions and demeans others with different opinions? You even talk about Eckhart like you completely know him just by a couple of videos. I mean...
Again, just because I said you should do meditation doesn't mean I am here to you convincing you.

Meanwhile you were trying tactics such as name calling and telling me I have an ego and I am judging ...etc. So if you want to play that game, I can also sink to that low level of name calling too on name calling Meditation.

Incredible the way you interpret this with such negativity. When I said that, the point was not to offend you, but you, of course, only understand that way, that I am here to picking you off. Hey Aytundra, I have an Ego too. But I started to recognize how it operates, how it takes over me doing meditation. And, guess what, unfortunately, it still takes me over much more than I wanted. So, maybe, I have a bigger Ego than you.

I am still going to answer with my opinions and perspective of how I view the topic of Meditation, because that is the only position I have so far

Than stick with it.

I am just continuing to be a good sport about keeping this arm wrestling match that you seem to be enjoying going.

Arm wrestling...

that you seem to be enjoying going.

It is actually making me sad, because this conversation it has been indeed like a fight for you. You are the one that is happy continuing going on and on, just waiting for the next answer to strike/attack and to stay on top.
I don't want any of this.
I'm out, sorry.

[Aytundra]

Oh and, wealthy people do not need to dumpster dive.
Just like healthy people do not need to take supplements.

And even if people are not wealthy
they do not need to choose dumpster diving activity to solve their problem.

Just like even if people are not healthy
they do not need to take medication to solve their problem.
Sometimes it depends on the problem, like if someone got sick with the flu, all is needed is just a few days off work and bed rest to solve the problem, no medication necessary.

There are many ways to solve a real problem.

[Novidez]

Oh and, wealthy people do not need to dumpster dive.
Just like healthy people do not need to take supplements.

And even if people are not wealthy
they do not need to choose dumpster diving activity to solve their problem.

Just like even if people are not healthy
they do not need to take medication to solve their problem.
Sometimes it depends on the problem, like if someone got sick with the flu, all is needed is just a few days off work and bed rest to solve the problem, no medication necessary.

There are many ways to solve a real problem.

You keep comparing meditation with medication
I rather see it as a tool.
Or like we eat some foods strategically to promote their effectiveness.

[Aytundra]

Most people like to promote Meditation as a tool.
Rarely do people genuinely seek Meditation for itself (i.e. Olympic-level-expert-dumpster-divers), but for it as a tool, most people have a reason for Meditation, it can range from the word "stress", "post traumatic stress disorder PTSD", even blatantly saying it is a tool "relaxation tool",..."to remove suffering", "to remove pain"...

For example, I said "Meditation is quackery", the context of that name calling is that a lot people like to name a medical problem and then promote Meditation as a tool to fix that problem. That is using Meditation as Medication.

There can be a possibility that using Meditation, while displacing real-Medication needed to fix a real-Problem, and that is just as troublesome of a thought as taking unnecessary-Medication for a fake-non-existent-Problem.

[Kasper]

Well you crashed into my diary disagreeing with my belief "that mediation is not good for aytundra" and that you believe that aytundra should have meditation. So far you have not convinced me that meditation is for aytundra.

No no no hahaha. You said that meditation is only for sick people that need medication and that you are too healthy to do meditation. Or something along that lines. Do you still believe that?

[Novidez]

"There can be a possibility that using Meditation, while displacing real-Medication needed to fix a real-Problem.

You keep thinking on diseases... But what about when occurs a natural catastrophe that destroys your house and kills your entire family? Or when you lose your job that you have been working for 30 years of your life? Ok, in this last example, I bet you will probably say something like "Go search for another job then!". But, sometimes, it's not that simple.
Try saying to a person that is depressed to get out of depression and tell me if it works.

People get attached to things: to their job, to their money, to their personality, to their family, to their house,... That's their sense of who they are. When some of those things suddenly disappear on their lives, they feel lost or feel depersonalization. They start wondering who they really are. Are your thoughts? Are you a student? Are you Aytundra? On the superficial level, yes, you are those things, it is your currently life situation and those are your pointers. But on a deeper level, who are you truly? If you lose all your memories, you still exist and you wouldn't call yourself "Aytundra" or that you are this or that. You simply are.

Meditation essentially makes you realize that you are not your mind only.

[Aytundra]

No no no hahaha. You said that meditation is only for sick people that need medication and that you are too healthy to do meditation. Or something along that lines. Do you still believe that?

Yes, meditation is for people with problem(s).
Normal people do not need to meditate.

Yes, medication is for sick people with problems solve-able by the correct medication.
Healthy people do not need to medicate.

[Aytundra]

You keep thinking on diseases... But what about when occurs a natural catastrophe that destroys your house and kills your entire family? Or when you lose your job that you have been working for 30 years of your life? Ok, in this last example, I bet you will probably say something like "Go search for another job then!". But, sometimes, it's not that simple.

So, you think they should all meditate?

Try saying to a person that is depressed to get out of depression and tell me if it works.

So, you think they should meditate too in that situation?

People get attached to things: to their job, to their money, to their personality, to their family, to their house,... That's their sense of who they are. When some of those things suddenly disappear on their lives, they feel lost or feel depersonalization. They start wondering who they really are. Are your thoughts? Are you a student? Are you Aytundra? On the superficial level, yes, you are those things, it is your currently life situation and those are your pointers. But on a deeper level, who are you truly? If you lose all your memories, you still exist and you wouldn't call yourself "Aytundra" or that you are this or that. You simply are.

So, you think they should meditate?

Meditation essentially makes you realize that you are not your mind only.

But if reading things like that already explains that you are not your mind only. "You simply are".
Why meditate?

[Kasper]

No no no hahaha. You said that meditation is only for sick people that need medication and that you are too healthy to do meditation. Or something along that lines. Do you still believe that?

Yes, meditation is for people with problem(s).
Normal people do not need to meditate.

Yes, medication is for sick people with problems solve-able by the correct medication.
Healthy people do not need to medicate.

So you find your own reaction to meditation completely "normal"/"healthy"? Honest?

[Aytundra]

Yes I think my reaction is normal.
My reaction last week was normal.
My reaction tonight, we will see.

My reaction years ago:
I remember sitting in a meditation thing a few years ago, and felt perfectly fine with a classmate doing the same thing keeping his eyes open, and we were ignoring the meditation guest speaker and the meditation CD.
So no, it is not only my idea that meditation is overrated.

My first meditation session 8 years ago, it was not the "empty mindfulness fad meditation going on now", it was more like a "imagination" meditation.
I did well in that session, it was because I opposed the meditation speaker.
The meditation speaker told us to imagine light surrounding you, to feel the warmth etc...
I did the opposite, I am like if you want me to imagine light around me, nope, not gonna do that, I will sit in dark instead. Then I am like hmm, then I am light instead, all those other people are so egocentric that they need light hahaha.
Hahaha, I guess I never meditated as meditation speakers wished for their subjects from the beginning.

It is not my reaction, here some online news article about a journalist's opinion also questions this mindfulness meditation fad:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens ... -2015.html

[Novidez]

Yes I think my reaction is normal.
My reaction last week was normal.

I liked how you removed the quotation marks on the word normal. Kasper clearly put them there. Being "normal" is such a vague thing.

I did the opposite, I am like if you want me to imagine light around me, nope, not gonna do that, I will sit in dark instead. Then I am like hmm, then I am light instead, all those other people are so egocentric that they need light hahaha.
Hahaha, I guess I never meditated as meditation speakers wished for their subjects from the beginning.

Omg, look at you talking. Who is the real egocentric?

and felt perfectly fine with a classmate doing the same thing keeping his eyes open

Interesting. It seems that you have experienced some meditation there and you didn't even noticed. Just don't change your good experience opinion now, because I've called it meditation.

You seem to interpret meditation like a heavy thing that you have to do with great effort. But I understand how you are thinking: probably your concept of meditation is around of being sit and trying not to think.

I don't completely agree with that actually. Meditation or whatever you want to call it is like a state of being, a way of living and not a task to do. Even Eckhart makes fun of people that sit to meditate. Like: ok, they are 2 hours meditating, but the rest of the day, they are completely rambling, mad and unaware of themselves.
I don't know a lot about Buteyko Method, but I remember reading somewhere that you can do one breathing exercise for 2 mins each day. But, the point of it is not to do only 2 minutes a day; it is doing every single minute of the day.

It is not my reaction, here some online news article about a journalist's opinion also questions this mindfulness meditation fad:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens ... -2015.html

We could be here all entire life searching for links to prove our point of view or whatever you want to call it. Maybe, I did the same mistake when I quoted Eckhart or showed videos from him. But the whole point of it was not to convince you of anything. I just wanted you to listen.

[Aytundra]

and felt perfectly fine with a classmate doing the same thing keeping his eyes open
Interesting. It seems that you have experienced some meditation there and you didn't even noticed. Just don't change your good experience opinion now, because I've called it meditation.

NO, that was not meditation.
That was me sitting there disobeying the meditation speaker and the meditation CD.
My classmate was doing the same, we were disobeying the meditation speaker.
We have no interest in the guest speaker.
We were actively not participating.
We were rolling our eyes at it. basically scoffing at the idea of meditation. We sat at the back of the room, so we were not much of an interference.
I was using that as an example to say that it is "normal" to refuse meditation.
I felt good that I had a classmate doing the exact same thing as me, that is disobeying a meditation speaker.

So you find your own reaction to meditation completely "normal"/"healthy"? Honest?

I enjoy your use of "normal" and "healthy" with a quotation mark.
We must always question adjectives.

Commercials and marketers love to abuse these words as a buzz word to promote a product:
i.e. pasta with fiber is very "healthy" food for you.
It is "normal" to eat cereal as part of a "healthy" breakfast, chose our product to start your day.

There can always be the possibility of there is no such thing as "normal".
In an ecology textbook, I read that you can measure fish length of various size but at the end of the day you will not find 1 single fish exactly 23.2 cm.
It might be that there are a bunch of fish at 12 cm and a bunch of fish at 35 cm, and it averages to 23.2 cm.

[Novidez]

disobeying

Such a thing to proud of.

[Kasper]

Can I ask you how old you are aytundra?